The Iconoclast Project

Pseudoscientific Atheism, and the validity of Deism.

2008-08-13T13:04:00.000-07:00

I am a great fan of many of the polemics of the new breed of vocal Atheists out there{Though I lean towards Deism as an Agnostic-Deist}, unfortunately some of them are dooing Atheism, science, and reason itself a disservice.

Case in point. Biologist and Atheist Richard Dawkins in his best seller{ for some reason found in the "science" section of your local bookstore} "The God Delusion" legitimately critizises Theism, faith, and religion. But he makes the grave mistake of taking down Agnosticism, Deism, and Pantheism with it. Granted Pantheism, beeing a "theism" is not very supportable{though it should be noted that a good percentage of so-called "Pantheists" are actually more accurately PanDeists or PanenDeists- since their God is an impersonal one, Theism neccecitates a personal god/divinity}. But Deism{PanDeism/PanenDeism} and Agnosticism are more supportable. In his book Dawkins calls Pantheism "Sexed Up Atheism", it's obvious he refers to Scientific Pantheism rather than classical Pantheism; Scientific Pantheism is poetic Atheism with poetic reverance for the natural universe, unlike classical Pantheism wherein they refer to the Universe literally beeing a intelligent and personal beeing. But Dawkins does not make that distinction.

Dawkins also essentuially accuses Agnostics of fence sitting, and Deists of beeing "watered down theists". He calls Atheism the 'default" position, that is NOT a 'belief" and does NOT need to explain itself{or themselves for "Atheists"}. Dawkins furtermore calls himself a Agnostic-Atheist but by such a small percetage of Agnosticism and in such a smarmy way that anyone using their reason can see he's merely beeing pretentious and "attempting"{rather poorly} to be "open-minded"/"open-ended".

Dawkins has began a trend of new Atheists out there that is a growing movement. He's not the only one that has infuenced this movement. Contrarian Journalist Christopher Hitchens, Philosopher/Neuroscience student Sam Harris,Philosopher and scientist Daniel Dennett and others have also influenced this movement. Personally I am a big fan of both Hitchens and Harris, as neither has gone out of their way to so blatantly mock other rationalists that are'nt Atheists{by this I mean the Agnostics and Deists}.Unfortunately, so many of the new Atheisst out there have like sheep followed their sheperd Dawkins example and effectively made a mockery of Atheism by belittling other non-theist rationalists, and by mixing{as Dawkins has} Atheism together with other ideologies with the implication that unless you also subscribe to these other ideologies and the mainstram opinion of this herd of Dawkinites- you are a heretic and not truly rational or in line with science facts. I call this the "Cult of Dawkins" or "Dawkinites".

Don't get me wrong, I like much of what Dawkins has to say, I agree with many of his opinions, and find him to be a rather laid back fellow. But Dawkins has made a joke out of Atheism and the new Atheist movement by making it so incredibly small-minded and hypocritical that so many intelligent people have bought into it. I also agree with Evangelical Christians on various issues, and find some of them to be very laid back and likable people as well, but I still comdemn their beliefs and have no problem criticising said beliefs or those views they espouse which I disagree with or see as abhorable.

The biggest mistake Dawkins and his fan club have made is in how they've attempted to corner the market on "science" for Atheism and not only Atheism, but their brand of it. Along with their utter lack of understanding about Agnocoticism, Deism, Pantheism,etc. For example, as a Deist myself, I've noticed that he and they tend to have an undersyanding of Deism that is purely limited to "Classic Deism" and the U.S. founding fathers, and have not noticed that as "liberal theism" became into beeing and more fashionable- Deism has seperated from the liberal theism of early Deism{or at least has EXANDED naturally and evolved past the views of the Deists of that era}.

Another big Mistake he/they make is in claiming the referances to God by great scientists and philosopers from the enlightenment till now, from Spinoza to Einstein to Hawkings, are just playful poetic gestures by Atheists. It's clear though from reading all their stuff that none of these were or are Atheists, Agnostics perhaps{but they all seem to lean more towards either Deism or PanDeism/PanenDeism than Atheism}. But what can be expsted, when these same hypocrital Atheist polemicists often like to make a claim that the founding fathers were Atheists{many aknowledge they were Deists of course; but even then they say...'they'd be Atheisst today", my question- "how the hell do you know that? are you psychic?}.

They've also made a huge mistake in thinking and claiming that Atheism is the rational default position, is not a 'belief", and need not explain itself.

Atheism IS a belief. AGNOSTICISM{between Atheism and Deism} is the"De-fault" that need not explain itself and is the truly faithless LACK OF BELIEF.Atheism is as much a belief, based in reason and science, as Deism is. Both Atheism and Deism are equally supportable given the evidence and theories provided us by scientists[from biologists and other earth sciences; to the sciences of the Cosmos and the quantum world such as Physics, astronomy, and Cosmology,etc}. When either Atheism or Deism claimed the market on science and reason, it makes a joke of the position, and is acting pseudoscientifically.

Science neither proves nor disproves the Atheist or Deist positions. I include in "Deism" some of it's ofshoot theories such as PanDeism and PanenDeism{mixes various aspects of Pantheism or PanenTheism with aspects of Deism}.Philosophically, both positions{Atheism,Deism and it's offshoots} are equally supportable given what we currently know about the cosmos and ourselves. But the STRONG Atheists would like us to believe that the facts PROVE Atheisms case and show DEISM to be a slightly more reasonable or less harmful version of theism. But as they like to do, they accuse Agnosticism of fence sitting thereby aiding the Deists whom beeing "watered down theists" aid the liberal theisst whom aid the liberal religionists whom aid the liberal Christians and Liberal Muslims whom in the end just provide an aid to nutty fundamentalists which aids terrorists. Ssee the mindtrap they have created, unless you are a Strong Atheist... you are helping the fundamentalists and supporting terrorism indirectly. An absurd leap of logic if ever there was one.Dawkins as his little cult of sheep have, has accused anyone and anything that isn't 100% pure Atheism of beeing pseudoscientific[and indeed some views and people are; Deists and Agnostics by far are not amongst these]. But effectively by claiming that science proves Atheism they have made themselves pseudoscientific. First of all, Science neither proves nor disproves anything related to the god question as science is UNCONCERNED with these philosophical questions{which should be relegated to "philosophy" not "science"}; There have been no experiments doen and then verfied and re-verified and peer reviewed{etc} to prove whether or not the Universe had a Creator, the questios is simply outside the realm of science and does not belong there, it belongs in "philosophy". So their claims are themselves pseudoscientific, and Dawkins is currently the biggest perpetrator of this pseudosceince in the new Atheist community{him and his growing followers}."The God Delusion" is even found, as I mentioned near the beginning of this essay, in the Science section of bookstores and libraries and is touted as a science book. But it's not, it's a Philosophical Atheist polemic/apologetic which utilizes some scientific facts and theories, this no more makes it a science book than a book polemic of Deism, or even than the pseudoscientific and rather absurd polemical books of Intelligent Design or Creationist pseudoscientists. And Dawkins growing fanclub have taken to making these same pseudoscientific and logical blunders. Even some of the other vocal Atheists in the book writing community and whatnot have begun to get sucked into the Dawkins hypocritical web{including many Scientists whom happen to be Atheists}.

Now, if they want to play the game that way and claim it is science or reason, than so be it. Then they better be willing to allow us other non-theist rationalists whom may be uncertain of Gods existence{Agnostics} or believe in a Prime Mover/First cause intelligence Creator{Deists} as well as Agnostic-Deists/PanDeists and PanenDeists into this game.

Now, that said, I refer the Dawkinites to the writings of respected Physicist Paul Davies, whom is as anti-religion as any of them, but whom displays a belief in the existence of a Deistic{more accuretely a PanDeistic or PanenDeistic} God. He has many books using science facts and theories and philosophically examining the question of Gods existence. Two of those books, which I am myself currently reading, are "The Mind of God; the scientific basis for a rational world" and "God and the new physics". Great books. I might mention that Dawkins mentions Davies in "The God Delusion" as beeing "somewhere between Einsteintonian Pantheism and an abscure form of Deism"{ie:PanDeism/PanenDeism}.

Now, these books cover many arguments,and Davies does it with a more integity towards looking at all angles than Dawkins does. Some of the Science based philosophical arguments Davies examines are the usual "argument from design" and two variations of the "cosmological argument", both of which he backs up as possible but also uses science to debunk{or in other words, shows that they are possible, but NOT needed, or rather that there are theories that challenge these two}, "Fine tuning", "conciousness", and various others.For example, he examined certain questions oft overlooked. Sure natural science explains HOW, but it does not explain why or even how natural laws are the way they are, and why these laws?

As A Deist{agnostic-deist; PanDeist/PanenDeist} I must pose these challenges and questiosn to STRONG Atheists. I had one Strong Atheist tell me there is a vaccum of evidence{ie no evidence} and the argument for "Multiverse theory"; Many Atheists also offer up the fact of the "singularity"{1}The vaccum of evidence? The Atheist cannot answer as to 'why" there are a set number of natural laws and WHEY they ARE the way they are. They cannot account for fine tuning. All they can offer is the multiverse theory{which personally appeasl to me as well}- which is a theory no less and no more valid than a Deistic intelligence.{2}They can offer the singularity, but not how it works exactly or why it exists or the exact nature of it's existence. I myself would suggest that perhaps the singularity IS GodAs a Deist I would point out the mathematical precisness of the Universe, and the absurd improbability that life[any kind; not neccaserily human or human like] could have arisen in the Universe if the initial conditions had been off by even the slightest percentage from what they were. It's allmost like those initial conditions were tweaked. Of course, even Paul Davies himself poses a challenge against this very argument{ I can't recall exact nature of his argument at the moment}- but that argument of his that some Atheists use is only theoretical itself, and it still does not account for the mathematical preciseness of the nature of the universe, why the laws are the way they are or even why there are laws in the first place and why there are a limited number of natural laws as opposed to a pure chaotic coup.

The Atheist can offer the argument of the "Static Universe", that is.. that the Universe always has been and had no beginning. That's possible, but then even most Scientists whom are Atheists believe the probability of the big bang, the Universe we know having a beginning{whether as something coming from nothing out of the singularity, or as a bubble Universe from a foam of a theoretical Multiverse}, so Static State Universe is currently, though possible, not as supported by findings as the big bang model is and most scientists support the big bang model. And though they can offer that the Universe is a neccasery and contingent thing, but they cannnot offer evidence or sound argument as to how or why it is and how or why that argument is any more valid than a neccasery intelligent prime mover force{God}.

The Cosmos display an innate intelligance. Perhaps that's illusionary and accidental, perhaps not. Ockhams Razor implies to me that it is what it seems to be...intelligent in some fashion.

Until Atheists can disprove such arguments using reason and factual proof, your theory of an atheistic universe is as and no more or les valid than our deistic one. If all you can offer is reactionary atheism against the insanity of theism, you'll have to do better than that. Deism is far removed from Theism{or at least...can be}. I offer that STRONG Atheism is a faith[at least if the atheist must call deism one}. Both are unproven but reasonable beliefs if "strong".But I suggest that both STRONG Atheism AND STRONG Deism[pandeism/panendeism} are reasonable BELIEFS about origins and nature of cosmos. If one condemns the other blindly- it is a faith{Dawkins for example displays this "faith"}. Strong Atheists like to pretend their poistion is the default, but it IS NOT! Agnosticism between the afforemetnioned two positions IS. Agnostic-Atheism and Agnostic-Deism{pan/en/deism} are just LEANINGS.

I've not seen a single STRONG Atheist or STRONG Deist dismantle these arguments or show them as false. And when they attempt they only wind up making themselves seem lke hypocritical faith-based fools asserting absolutes that they cannot possible know YET.

I might also offer this fact, that SOME Deists also make similar illogical, pseudoscientific, and hypocritical blunders as outlined here about many in the new Atheist movement. Allthough, the ratio of Vocal Deists to Vocal Atheistas acting so hypocritically is much smaller, though they DO exist. Paul Davies is obviously one of the more reasonable ones{moreseo than Dawkins and his adoring sheep} as are most others I've noticed.

So there you have it. Evidence and argument showing the hypocritical attitude and even pseudoscientific attitude of many of todays STRONG Atheists, pretenders to the throne of reason that they are, and specifically of Richard Dawkins and his clones. And the philosophical and scientific case for Deism{s}.

Deist polemicists of note:-Thomas Paine{revolutionary, polemicist, human rights advocate, U.S. foundinf father,etc}-
-Aristotle{greek philosopher}
-Voltaire{enlightenment philosopher}
-John Armstrong{Author "God Vs. The Bible", godvsthebible.com}
-Antony Flew{philosopher, former atheist polemicist}
-Raymond Fontaine, Ph.D. {Author of "My life with God in and outside the church"; deism.com}-Baruch Spinoza{Pandeism/panandeism/pantheism}
-Albert Einstein{^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^}
....AND of course- Physicist Paul Davies

Some of my favorite Atheist polemicists:
-Christopher Hitchens{Anti-theist and Contrarian. Journalist, Author of "god is not GREAT" amongst many other books on politics, religion, and various issues as well as numerous articles}
-Sam Harris{author- 'the end of faith"....amongst others.

Please feel free to discuss.

In Reason:
Bill Baker

Mel Gibson's pseudo anti-semitism a diversion

2006-08-09T15:12:00.000-07:00

July 28th, the day Mel Gibson revealed his anti-semitism?

The above mentioned day, Actor and director Mel Gibson was pulled over by cops for drunk driving, and launched into a allegedly anti-semitic tirade, saying "Fucking Jews. The Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world"{no doubt related to the new war between Israel and Lebanon, where Israel claiming to defend itself due to two of it's soldiers beeing kidnapped by the militant Islamic group hezbollah, has killed hundreds of Labaneze civilians with rockets; which may seem Paranoid, but to be honest I can understand that paranoia, since they are surrounded by Islamic nut run states that want to obliterate them}anyways, I digress...

...Due to this, Gibson has been accused of anti-semitism, which is not new for him, since when he made the movie "The passion of the christ" he was accused of unfairly and anti-semitically demonizing Jews as a whole{a load of crap, but whatever. I mean we may as well call ALL evangelical christians anti-semitic, do we? No.}.

Is Mel an Anti-Semite?

Well, lets look at the definition of "Semite"

Dictionary.com defines "Semite" thusly;
1}A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.
2}A Jew.
3}Bible. A descendant of Shem.

Also refer to Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semite

As we can see, Jews are NOT the only "Semites". Yet, in our discourse we ALWAYS use the term ONLY in referance to Jews, and anti-semite ONLY in referance to Anti-Jews.
When was the last time you heard anyone use this term "anti-semite" when a Muslim/Islamic/ARAB person or a Near the mid-east African type have recieved unfair prejudice? NEVER! You NEVER hear it! The term is used ONLY to give special preferance to the Jewish peoples, and anti-semitism is treated as if it is somehow so much more deplorable than any other kind of prejudice/discrimination/persecution/or racism, due to the horrible atrocity that That fuckhead Hitler and his ignorant Nazi herd inflicted on 6 million Jews{and many, many OTHER people as well}.
As horrible as the Holocaust was, and anyone whom denies the holocaust is a bloody idiot, and anyone whom has no compassion or sympathy for those that suffered{including and especially the Jews} is a bloody fuckhead; this does NOT make Jewish people{race or Israel the country, and especially not the RELIGIOUS Jews} or anyone else whom pulls the "anti-semite" word out ONLY in referance to Jews and jumps on the bandwagon of beeing anti-Jewish beeing the worst kind of racism or prejudice, correct in their dooing so..

Given the origins and meaning of "Semite", there are many Anti-Islamic and prejudiced against or anti-Arab Jews out there whom should also be labelled "Anti-Semitic"{same goes towards those prejudiced agains Northern Africans, so on and so forth}. Really, this term "Anti-Semitism" has no more meaning anymore. When someone is racist against Arabs or Islamics they should be labelled "Anti-Arab" or "Anti-Islamic", same for the African semites,etc.

As for when someone is prejudiced or racist against "Jews", it should be first defined as to whether they are against the politics/etc of the state of Isreal to one degree or another{and how much}, whether they are opposed to the Judaic religion{which, when referring to the faith/religion, this term "Judaic" should ALWAYS be used to distinguish from "Jews" the race/ethnicity, this way there will be less misunderstanding and we will find some whom we thought were anti-semitic or even anti-Jewish are really JUST anti-Judaic/religion}, or lastly-whether they are opposed to the race/ethnicity of the Jews. THEN, use the appropriate allegation against them; if they be against some or all of Israels policies -call 'em "anti-Israel" or at least "opposed to certain politics in Israel", if they are opposed to the faith/religion of the RELIGIOUS Jews{and the non Jewish followers of Judaism} call them "Anti-Judaic"{I would fit this label, but then again I oppose all the Abrahamic/monotheistic/theistic/absolutist faiths in general}, and finally for the Racists idiots-call em "Anti-Jewish", how hard can it be?

Now, in regards Mel Gibson. It is well known that he is a dedicated member of an Ultra-orthodox sect of Catholicism, a religion which alongside most of Orthodox/Fundamentalist/Evangelical Christianity which has been behind a disproportionate number of oppressions, genocides,persecutions, and wars in the last 1700 years of History{or at least western history}. Mel was raised in it by his Father, whom has been known to have denied the holocaust{or at least denies that the number of Jews killed were 6 million}-he probably fits into the "Anti-Jewish" label to some degree{ but beeing that I am unaware of the fullnes of his ignorance and prejudices; he could simply be opposed to the idea that 6 millsion were killed, but not neccaserily hate the Jewish race, I'm unsure myself, if any of my readers whom know more about Mels dad could clarify this for me, It'd be appreciated}. Gibson,however, given the definition of "Semitic" I've elaborated on, simply is NOT "Anti-Semitic" in general.
I also do not believe that he is Anti-Jew in general, he even has Jewish friends, one of whom came to his defense after his drunken tirade.

His tirade came after Israel bombed the hell out of Lebanon. I have the inkling that Gibson does have some deep-seated anger towards the state of Israel{or at least the elite leaders thereof and some or many of their policies,etc} and perhaps even some dislike of "JUDAISM" the religion{or certain versions of it}, just that when he was wasted on alchohol and unable to properly explain it using the proper vocabulary
{and whom can fault him for this, the vast majority of us, even most liberal intellectuals don't have the right vocabulary to make such distinctions, that or they lack the patience to more explicitly spell things out to make them clearer; we live in a dumbed down culture in general} due to his drunkeness. And perhaps the taboo of speaking against anything related to Jewish people, even if JUST is the religion{there are non Judaic Jews ya know} or the Policies of Israel or what have you, has caused Mel to be afraid to speak his mind on those particular topics, and the dumbed down,non-explanatory vocabulary our culture pushed onto us[this oddly enough due to the political corrections of the liberal left-of which I am a part=or at least I'm left leaning}, and so it exploded in this drunken, not well thought out rant.

Is Mel a little off his nut? Perhaps. Most people are, especially most faith-based people of absolutist faiths. Is he racist,anti-semitic, or anti-Jewish{in general}=I highly doubt it!

I think that this current media, political and social attack of Mel{whom asked for it to some degree by getting drunk and then shouting off his mouth using the wrong wording} is just more pop culture sensationalism and focusing on celebrities, a carefuly crafted way{like so many other media diversions} to get our minds off of the really important topics at hand, in this case it may be perhaps a way to get people to stop questioning Israels overdooing it of bombing the civilian population of Lebanon{but then again, this is largelythe fault of those cowards Hezbollah hiding amongst the civilians and then taunting,threataning and attacking Israel; personally I'm unsure of where I stand on this, but I understand both sides of the argument for and against Israels bombing campaigns}.
Should Mel be scrutinized, sure, to a small degree. But for christs sakes, cut the religious nut a break. After all, he's no worse than 90% of the other faith based nuts out there and sympathizers of such that are trying to make him into a racist monster.

In Reason:
Irrev.Bill

"Red Friday", support troops by supporting God!

2006-05-05T12:57:00.000-07:00

The following is a letter to the editor of my local paper- "The Brandon Sun" about a new "Red Friday" campaign, wherein certain Canadians are callling for Canadians to support our troops in Afghanistan by wearing red every Friday, the article I read said specifically the following :

"A growing Internet campaign is calling on all Canadians to voice a love for God, country and home by wearing something red every Friday."{from the "Brandon Sun" May 05/06, page 2}.

I was suspiciuos of the movites and intentions of this thing so I wrote the letter below:

{Quote;The Very Irreverand Bill"/}
Regarding "Red Friday Campaign" article{May 05/06}.

On first inspection, this campaign will seem to many to be nice and supportive of the troops. But on deeper thought, it reveals that many Canadians wish to be clones of the U.S., whom our soldiers are risking their lives and dying for in Afghanistan, when our soldiers should'nt even be there, or at least should "no longer" be there. 9/11 was 5 years ago, the Taliban was removed right after that when the U.S. sought vengeance and justice for the crime committed on 3000 innocent American civilians. However, America could've took their own vengeance and took out the Taliban on their own, they participated in that and than left it up to us to clean up their mess. Five years later our troops are still risking their lives in Afghanistan, this is no longer simply a peace keeping mission, but occupation{one that puts our soldiers lives at needless risk}, it's time for our troops to be pulled out of there.

What I find disturbing about the "Red Friday Campaign", is that it's apparently founded upon few scary things that should not be mixed together and then deceptively packaged as "troop support". These things mixed are nationalism/patriotism, war,capitalist anti-socialist/communist political extremes, and religious fanaticism. Yes, religious fanatacism. The article states that the call is for God and country. This is particularly disturbing because of a growing trend happening in Canada to become America junior or Americas clone, this all started when the Conservative gov't came into power and is planning to mess w/gay rights at some point for the religious right and we have PM Stephen Harper acting like the U.S. President, irresponsibly playing favoritism w/Judeo-Christianity and monothiesm by saying "God bless Canada" at the end of speeches and whatnot. This "Red Friday Campaign" seems to be further indication of a social-political move amongst Canadian right-wingers to mix God and patriotism, and to scapegoat our soldiers for their religious and nationalistic arrogances. Seriuisly, if I were in the army and were stationed in Afghanistan against my wil-or even willingly, I as a nontheist would find it incredibly insulting to see my country turn into U.S. Jr. in this fashion, and to have my life which is at risk there beeing used by religious nationalists to promote their God and their nationalism.

Yes, I too do support our troops, our soldiers, and like American leftists I am showing my support by rather than participating in mindless religiously fueled pseudo-patriotism campaigns using the soldiers lives to promote such, I as a supporter of our troops will say what many Americans are saying to their leaders- "Bring our troops home, out of wars that they should not be in, or at least should NO LONGER be involved in; quit risking their lives for nationalistic and western stupidities and hypocrisies" .

I would'nt be opposed to this "Red Friday" campaign if it were not for the obviuos U.S. style religious right mixed with nationalism and capitalism sentiments laced in the rhetoric. Why even include "God" in this campaign? What does the monotheistic "God" have to do w/this? If someone wants to support our troops by calling for them to be brought home{as these soldiers wives should be dooing} or even if they support the troops beeing there- that's one thing, but to throw the monotheistic "God" into the mix, this means that like in the U.S.-unless you believe in "God" you will be considered less patriotic, this rhetoric of mixing "God" in there is a precurosor to such stupidity happening. Frankly, how is this any different than saying that the call is to "Voice a love for Zeus, country and home"? There IS no difference? Keep your personal faiths to yourselves and don't act as if to imply that Canada is a christian nation and that all the troops believe in your monotheistic "God"{or any god period}? This should be a wake-up call to Canadian rationalists of various types, Canadian non-monotheists and non-theists, Canadian liberal theists, to see how the Christian right and monotheistic right wish to slowly subvert and infiltrate our nation w/their theologically based values and biases, much like has happenned in the U.S., and the ultimate end will be the same repression and demoniation of those they deem unworthy of pure equality such as "Gays, atheists/non-theists of other kinds, Witches,etc,etc" just as has happenned in the U.S. If we don't sayand do something about this subversion, history will repeat itself and the whole of North America will slowly head into the era of Christian superstition, demonizations and oppressions, once again.

If this campaign must take place, then please support our troops by calling for them to be brough home, or at least stop throwing the monotheistic "God" into the mix w/your patriotism, thereby insulting all non-theistic soldiers serving in Afgnanistan and risking their lives so you can subversevely impose theological ideas on everyone whom does'nt share those ideals{this is not what they are fighting for}, soldiers have fought and died so that we can remain a country of TRUE Freedom "of" religions and freedom FROM religions both, TRUE social/political equality. This also turns it into an "Us VS. Them" religious war of "Christians/Judeo-Christians vs. the Muslims and everyone else". Is this what we want? And do you all want a culture war of Christianity/Monotheism vs. everyone else, like the one in the U.S.? Because if this is your aim, it could ugly, so stop it before it does. Because some of us are ready to stand up to the subversion. Yes, this subversion has begun since Stephen Harpers Conservatives got into power, there is a slow and steady trend towards Americanism and towards Christian arrogance beeing shoved into uor faces socially and politically, it became especially apparent once Harper started blessing Canada at speeches in the name of Zeus...er..I mean Bible/monotheistic God; and now with this steadily growing in popularity "Red Friday" campaign mixing this same "God" with national patriotism{and implying patriotism requires a love of a Monotheistic God} and acting like it is out of love for our troops, I'm not buying it people. I'm sure these soldiers wives and families DO love their loved ones whom are risking their lives in Afgnanistan, so they should realize that our troops no longer belong there anymore and they should instead begin calling on our gov't to bring their loved ones home from needless danger, rather than keeping mainly silent about this and acting like in ordert to support our troops we must support the place and battle they are in; because frankly they DON'T belong in Afganistan anymore fighting risking their butts on behalf of America which has consistently showed itself irresponsible and unworthy of our support in the Mid-East since Bush got ahem...cough...elected.

I'm not opposed to the "Red Friday" campaign in and of itself, so long as myths and theology/religion are kept sepeate from the campaign itself, and the campaign is instead used to call on our gov't to bring the troops back home out of Afghanistan and send em to a place where the can make a better impact rather than help eventually prop up a pseudo-democratic Muslim theocracy-which WILL be the outcome, just pull them out for lifes sake, they should'nt be there anymore. I urge readers to not buy into this American style faith/christian based pseudo-patriotism. It's more about theology and nationalism than about "pure" troop/soliders support{yes, that is "part" of it, but it should be ALL that it is about, not second to theology and nationalism}.

One last thing, I want to call on all rational Canadians to call on our gov't to remove the Monotheistic Gods special privelage in our Chrater of rightss and freedoms, for so long as the opening of the Charter reads "Founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God{monotheistic} and rule of law"{w/the God supremacy part noted first and foremost"}-then the Christian/monotheistic right will always be able to seek and recieve special recognition and privelages and subvert everyone else. Frankly, what the Charter says may as well say "Founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of Zeus and rule of law"-because in both cases, it's about myth and superstition and is not based on facts.

Thank you "Brandon Sun" for printing and thank you fellow Westman residents for considering my thoughts on this matter.
As always,
In Reason:
Bill Baker
Brandon
{Unquote/}

In Reason:
The very irreverand Bill

Boycott Easter {Christian Imperialism}

2006-04-13T13:51:00.000-07:00

It's that time of year again. When we celebrate the death and ressurection of our Lord and Saviuor Horus...oh wait...Zeus.... no, that's not it....Santa?.... Oh right Jebus..er...Jesus.

I'm mad as hell and want to balk louder than the Cadburry easter bunny whilst searching for it's eggs.

Good{ahem, cough,cough!!!}Friday and Easter Sunday, the Christian holy-days are upon us this weekend, and in honour of this oh so persecuted faith group, the gov't offices and lots of secular business are closing their doors. As a result lots of people; many NOT Chrisatians, whom NEED the money they'd be making these days if they weren't FORCED to take them off in honour of the Christian myth, will be forced to observe at least to some degree. Sure, some will be happy as a clam, but others are barely muddling through and will be losing dozens dollars{some even more} that they NEED in able to muddle through; yes, lets make the poor starve and barely be able to pay their rent and bills in order to remember the death and ressurection myth of the ancient judeo-pagan cult...er...Christian myth cult man Jesus.

You know something else I find disgusting? I'm not sure about other cities, but here in Brandon,Manitoba the largely Christian run local Soup Kitchen- "Helping Hands" is even closing up. For many, the meal that is recieved every day{except for weekends, cause apparently the poor,homeless,welfare recipients, and hungry somehow magickally have more money for weekends and more food; assuming they've got working stoves;}at this place, is their only REAL or "substantial" mean{for some it's all they get; unless they go out and beg or borrow from friends and family; of course, "some" of these people are irresponsible dolts anyways, but not all of them are}, hmmm...the so-called Christians than run these soup kitchens apparently think that taking the day off is more important than feeding the poor,underfed, opressed poor masses; I guess they have forgotten that even Jesus and his diciples picked corn from the fields on a Sabbath holy day, meh. I am shocked that these so-called charities run by largely supposedly Chirst-loving people are closing their doors to the hungry so they can what? Really, what the hell is so damn important that they have to do on those days that they can't open for a few hours to feed people whom make next to nothing or whom are inbetween jobs or in certain circumstances where they are'nt currently able to feed themselves? What?

And what are the less fortunate to do, they can't go out and eat at expensive restaurants that might eb open, they can't go and do something; many will be forced to be cooped up in shitty slums all fuckin day{or, of course they could go to a Church good friday or easter service and be manipulated and guilte din their ignorance to beeing subservient to this lie of a faith and it's hypocrite tyrant mythgod}.

The worst thing is that this is the religious cultural imperialism of one particular faith on the whole damn country and culture at large, of a faith that whines all the goddamned time that it,it's followers, and it's god are oh so persecuted! Fuckers!!! The gov't and businesses observing this for them ins stupid!!! Do they close up for Ramadan{one of the many Islamic holy days}? Hows about Hannukah{Jewish}? Imbolc{Pagan}, or for the holydays/holidays of any other religion or creed, FUCK NO!!! Why the hell all the concesiions to the suppoedly persecuted Christian faith then?

Of course, there are those that'll claim "it's a secular holiday too?". Right, the easter bunny, chocolate{bowing to the God Nestle and other chocolate giants}. NO, IT' NOT!!! it IS "CHRSTIAN!" Just because you take the name that refers to a christian holy event and put athe face of a chocolate bunny on it doe'snt make it so! Plus, if so, than why the hell are we closing up our gov't offices and all gov't related places, malls, postal services, Public transit services, malls, grocery stores, and many other places? Why, for the love of chocolate bunnies? No, it's in order to give into the pressures of the Christian faith and honour their myths as if their myths are somehow more special than other myths! Plain and simple!

I recall the 1980's when everything was still closed on Sundays to observe the Sabbath{which is supposed to be Saturdays anyways; well...at least the Seventh day advetists get this right}or 'Lords day" I recall the battles to stop this cultural religious imperialism, in the end we got a victory{but only "partial", cause things till generally open late and close early}. What we need to do to is do the same thing in regards all the other Christian holy days that are still enforced upon our society at large by this oh so persecuted religion{whiny,hypocritical ,imperialist fucks seeking special status for themselves-their faith-and their mythological three-headed hydra-dragon beast deity}

Lets fight back. I say.... BOYCOTT and PROTEST these dumbass Easter restrictions,closings,and when some dumbass christian or other idiot assumes that everyopne is a christian and says "happy easter" to ya{I had this happen to me today, and I happenned to be wearing a black metal t-shirt, a spiked gauntles-AND AN INVERTED CRUCIFIX AROUND MY NECK at the time}, and loss of our liberties and equality to give special status to this plague called Orthodox Christianity. Enough is enough!!!

In Reason:
The Very Irreverand Bill Baker

p.s. if you care to, please spread this message around.

Religious Tolerance Overrated? {political Correction}.

2005-10-25T12:18:00.000-07:00

I've been thinking that what most people think of as "Religious Tolerance" in our pop culture today is really Politically Correct Bigotry and ignorance.

The fact is that very few "Religiuos Tolerance' advocates are scholars of the faiths they defend, nor do they truly know the religion. Most just take the words of the Religions/faiths adherents{or liberal apologizers} at face value w/out any logical discrimination or study of said faiths; those that DO study, study from the perspective of defending the faiths rather than truly studying the inner workings, the inner core doctrines, the true character of the faiths founders{prophets/etc}, the cultural and historical contexts of their scriptures nor the semantic meanigns w/in those contexts of variuos words and whatnot w/in their scriptures. Most take for granted the reality and most just accept the popular addage that 'all religions/faiths are equal and have similar core beliefs"{NOTHING could be further from the truth, this is a ideology that is strongly erroneous and dangerous to the core}.

I have tackled the Judeo-Christianity faith many times, and the Bible; exposing{along w/many others the core and character of it's Book, it's poor apologetics and pseudo-sciences, and it's insane and cruel founders}, I amongst many other apostates and other people who've studied have exposed this faith and it's dangers and lies; all attempts to defend it from us and accuse us of "intolerance" are weak and hypocritical.

I tend to trust the studies of apostates of faiths these days. Because the strongest apostes are usually people whove had the most dedication to said faiths and have done the most thourough studies{unless thay have become a part of another absolutist revealed faith, say leave Islam and became Christian, or visa versa}, No one of us has done this and come to uor conclusions because we want to, it is not psychollically or emotionally easy to analzyse and critisize your own faith like that, it causes more pain than you can imagine, but it can reap huge reards in the end to do so. So, we are not intolerant bigots or PREjudiced, we never wanted to lose faith, it's just that the reality of the contradictions,the cruelties and hypocrisies,etc, just became to overwhelming to ignore or minimalize.

I'm now reading through sites of former Islamicists{note that word, there is a big difference between "Islamic" and "Muslim", the wo words are different, "Islam" is a faith, "Muslim" is a culture/race or people}. The points they make, though contested by still devoted Islamicists, still often are agreed upon by those Islamicists{at least the well studied ones}though excuses for the things exposed are prominent. These former Islamicists having stdued deeply there own Scriptures{the Quran and Hadith} and other Islamic writings and other fields of knowledge; no for a fact that the "Prophet"{Muhammad} was a cruel and tyrannical murderer,theive,rapist,war-monger,etc. They also know that he had alot of wives and concubines and that his favorite was when he wa sin his 50's and she was around 6 when he asked for her hand in marriage and 9 when he consummated that marriage w/her{and further study reveals that she was not some super duper extra physically or mentally/emotionally mature child, she was like any other, perhaps more childish} and the time when he first decided he wanted her was when she was around 4-5. He was known to brutalize unbeleivers and to not obey the same laws he set out{such as the fact that he said the men could have only about 4 wives, whilst he had more than that}. He was known to have been a war tyrant, to have brutalized other people,etc. The Prophet "piss be upon him" was not much better than Judeo-christianities tyranys David,Moses, and others; and he was a hypocrite like the synoptic gospels Jesus Christ; allthough jesus had one up on this guy, Jesus did'nt rape little girls, have a bunch of wives and concubines, and he was a rataher pacifist and peaceable man{though he did set up laws he never fully obeyed and he did disobey parts of the Torah Law he considered irrelevant or an inconvenience}.

{Experts in Islam, an ex-islamics site} http://www.faithfreedom.org/

Apostates of Islam= http://www.apostatesofislam.com/

Muhammad the child molester/rapisthttp://www.homa.org/Details.asp?ContentID=2137352728&TOCID=2083225348

"How to speak to politically correct Bigots"http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina51021.htm

"you quote the Quran out of Context"http://www.faithfreedom.org/faq/70.htm

"Does Islam contain the golden rule"http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/BrianMacker51014.htm

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm

You've heard me drone on about Christianties faults before; the tyranny of Moses{Yahwehs great prophet} and David{a man after gods own heart},etc. The womanizing of Solomon and David. The cruel hypocrisy of Lot. The Inconsistencies and hypocrisies and cruelties and contradictions throughout the Babble..er..Bible, the cruel violence and misognyny of Jehovah, Jesus cult hypocrisy. the Poor modern apologetics and pseudo-sciences. the irrational and excessive fear and guilt behind this faiths doctrines{even taught by Christ himself}. The genocide,infanticidemrape,war crimes, torture comamnded by Biblegod and done by biblegod in the scriptures,etc. I could go on and On.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

http://www.evilbible.com/

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/

http://exchristian.net/archived.php

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/atrocity.html

http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible3.htm

I am aware that there is cruel and horrible shit in every ancient faith and it's founders{though I'm not too aware of anything in Budda and his philosophy, but I plan on finding out}, there are absurdities in modern religions and philosophies that could be pointed out as well; though many of them, not beeing of an "absolutist" nature or core founding, don't really need the same attack, but that does'nt mean they should not getting any challenges or exposings, just less important since they do not operate on a supposed divine mandate from the Universes Creator{or claim to}. The 3 Abrahamic religions pose special problems most faiths and religions don't since they have a 'one true god' concept and believe their scriptures to be "Gods true word", they ahve always had a special power hunger others have'nt as as much of.

My issue is this; I believe in religious "tolerance", but that term has come to mean "acceptance of" in our culture, it has come to mean politcally correct ass-kissing, which we do at our own peril. Even many well-meaning but ignorant faithless people jump on this politically correct bandwagon like sheep w/out truly thinking it throughh or knowing what exactly they are indeed defending. More times than makes me comfortable as an ethical human beeing I have seen faithless people and liberal pagans,etc{historically demonized and oppressed by these people; and are still to this day}jump to the defense of the Monotheists and the faithful when truly tolerant people such as myself{I'm not the only one} whom are tolerant of ALL religions and irreligions, so much so that we we wish to go after the few faiths that have the most cruelty/atrocity/absurdity/fear and guilt pushe donto children/intolerance towards ALL others-including sects of their own and expose their dangerous beliefs, we do it non-violently and yet w/tenacity and bluntness; yet we are the ones called "intolerant"-HOW ABSURD. Would you call the anti-racist or the anti-white supremacy person who speaks bluntly against the racist beleifs of such racists "intolerant"-I HIGHLY DOUBT IT!!! These few faiths are no better and in fact are just as bad, if not worse. For some reason "faith" and particularly the Abrahamic faiths are "untouchable"/"taboo". In some cases, hypocritical liberal leftist/proclaimers of "tolerance" go after Christianity w/tenacity and yet defend Islam{because it is politically and socially popular do to so since 9/11; again-political correction}-utterly hypocritical. You fools, do you not know that the Quran and Hadith are just as cruel and absurd and their prophet just as tyranical as that of the Judeo-Christian faiths and scriptures, do you not realize that the same tyranny you fear from the North American religiuos right RULES in much of the Muslim world in Islam?

When someone bad mouths the way that fundamentlaist Christians or Islamicists according to their "holy books" treat their women and children, ie:Islamic womens shrouds,etc, -these politically correct hypocrites defend the practice and they find the very few Islamic woman in the west whom are idiotic enough to defend their oppression, they see the many women is Islamic countires and homes whom say it is their right to wear it and it is part of their beliefs; do you not realize that most of these woman do this under social/political pressure from their religious leaders/families/politicians/etc whom guilt and fear them into it, that it is done because the social ramifications of beeing outcasts in their countires or communities or amongst their families and loved,oes and religiuos communitties,et,c are overwhelming {not too mention the threat of violence for beeing disobedient, even in questioning why they wear them}-and not to mention that a Loving Allah will make sure they are punished maybe even damned if they do not obey the doctrine/command, the psychollogical fear is overwhelming, so yeah-they publicly defend the practce, and yet way too many live in hidden shame and guilt and fear and hate the repression, but can do little or nothing about it. There are similar practices and beleifs and doctrines amongst Jews and Christians and in the Bible/Torah. Women have always been treated horrible by these faiths, their scriptures either make them slaves or second class citizens-and at the sanctioning of their tribal Deities. I am disturbed when so many so-called freethinkers are to politically correct to condemn this unethical,cruel, and hypocritical crap!!! I was reading on a Ex-Islamic site {faithfreedom.org} a letter written from a Pakistani Islamic girl/woman whom is still Islamic but expressed the tyranny she and other women are under{and yet she defended her faith; that's what indoctrination does people} and showed utter confusion. The author of the site replied w/compassion and yet anger at the faith and expresed their sorrow for her and others and said it brought them to tears. This is the shit that the politically correct defend.

I'll tell ya something. I've not yet read the entire Quran, but what I have read bothers me, and what I've heard of the Hadith{the sayings of Muhammad} disturbs me to the core. As far as the Bible and Christianity goes, I tell all people who've not been devoted orthodox christians yet whom are faithless freethinkers or just liberal freethinkers in general whom get mad at me for my exposings of the faith and Bible{I've had many do it, even get this-a few atheists and satanists}-you are ignorant, you do not know the ins and outs of this faith as I {and other aposates} do, you cannot comprehend, you have not studied these cruel ideas and commands w/in the "Good book", you know little or nothing, so please-before you attack us/me for defending YOU and ourselves against the thousands of years of tyranny under these horribel,unethical,cruel, fear and guilt induced, dangerous faiths, keep this in mind. And to you apostates whom are too politically correct,timid,etc, to join us-please at least silently agree w/us, you know well the dangers of these faiths, others of you left before you knew it all that well{as well as some of the rest of us}. It is the faiths we go after that are the truly "intolerant","PREJudiced","rude","insensitive",etc, and you know this damn well; so please think twice before thinking or calling us those accusations. We KNOW what we are talking about. Would you question Stephen Hawkings ideas on quantum physics or whatever-NO!!! He is an expert in his field, as are we in ours. So, when you want to call us those things or call us bigoted,etc, think about it, WHOM truly is such. It is these faiths, AND you whom jump on the politically correct bandwagon defend them so ignorantly and mindlessly.

I believe in "religious tolerance", but not the kind that is passed off these days in our culture, that is not "religiuos tolerance' it is blind and bigoted, it is sheep mentality, it is a flowery unrealistic view based in ignorance, it is naevety and gullibility at it's worst. Beeing tolerant of people whom ahve certain beleifs{not harming them or blidly hating them} is not the same as kissing their asses and defending their faiths themselves and beeing too stupid,ignorant,timid,politically correct to speak out the facts and truths about these faiths.

I grow weary{as do the others like me} of the incessant,midless attacks we get from those we are fighting on behalf of. Ingrates,traitors to true equality,free-thought,fact and REASON. I make no apologies for saying such things, because those I'm calling these things have made no apologies for attacking us. I had the last straw recently when I wrote a letter to the newspaper editor about how "God' should be taken out of the secular democratic charter/constitution and anthems of western democracy, because one view of the divien{monotheistic} should not be given extra favor over others; in that letter I defended the rights of and exposed the subjugation and persecution of others views such as pantheisms,polytheisms,deisms,etc, and above all of Atheists and Agnostics{whom get the heaviest persecution,subjugation,repression,demonization,and/or downright ignored,etc}-I shared it w/some friends my email before It got printed, one of thsoe friends-an atheistic satanist tore into me like a pitbull, accused me off beeing overly emotional in the letter{even "if" I was, it's w/damn good reason and backed up by evidence/facts}-yet the entire time this individual tore into me w/strong emotion{which this person hypocritically accused my letter of}I sat there and reaoned and stayed calm and debated rationally. I've heard rumor and have gotten the sense that this person is STILL mad a week later{I walked away from that debate shocked more than angry}-I never held any seriuos anger against this person after the debate, it was A DEBATE, and that is all. But after all this, I am angry and offended, I was defending atheists like this person against the oppression, and this satanic atheist got after me for dooing so, I just don't get it. Furthermore I told some friends about this and asked their opinions, one idiot ex-best friend of mine agreed w/this person about my letter; I gave them both the benefit of the doubt and went back over my letter to see if it was unreasonable-NOPE, IT WAS'NT!!! Another politically correct sheep exposed.

The ideological battle people like myself fight is to save humanity from the destruction that will come at the hands of these types of absolutist faiths. The politically correct herds defense of them will only lead to eventual demise, and the defense is base din utter naievety, people of reason have been fighting this battle for thousands of years, and yet we see a resurgence in these faiths followers trying to destroy all that we've worked for and all the positive and equal things that we've wrought, hiatory repeats itself and the dangerous cycle continues. It's time to evolve past this stuff people, to quit the de-evolutionary tendencies that we're creating by beleiving these things or defending them.

If we cannot even non-violently but verbally agressively speak against these beliefs, then what freedom do we have. Why is that we-the faithless don't get the same freedom and equality that those of faith[especially the very wealthy,powerful and dangerous Abrahamic faiths] have? The absurdity is astronimical!!!

We KNOW for a fact through study of all fields of knowledge{psysical and social sciences, as wellas history,mythology,semantics,etc,etc,etc} that these faiths are faery tales; and it's funny because it's perfectly fine to refer to smaller religions of the past that have few followers andmote as "myth' or "faery tales" {ie:Greek/Roman myhtology, Norse mythology, pagan faery tales/myths,Sumerian mythology, Egyptian mythology,etc,etc}and you can point out how horrible or hyporcritical those deities or their prophets were, yet call the faiths that retain higher numbers of adhernts the same thing and you are now "intolerant',"prejudiced","insensirive", when those faith have no more evidence in their favors, why this hypocrisy and absurdity???

Why is faith and particurly these few faiths I mentioned{Christianity,Islam,Judaism} so untouchable, so special??? What absurd philosophy makes them so? We have no problem pointing out the absurdity and/or cruelty of other ancient myhs. Would we react as nicely to the idea presented to us that we can at will jump off a building anf fly, or that we can throw our child off a building anf fly when we know factually that gravity will make us or our children fall to a gruesome death? Why should we apply different logic or standrads to faiths? Why should we not react w/the same doubt, and even the same repulsion against the popular idea presented that God is male and incarnated himself to sacrifice himself to himself to appease his own anger at us beeing the way he made us to be and then came back to life and floate dinto the sky phsically, or the idea that a child molesting,ciminal and misogynist war mongerering bigot recieved gods word from an an angel{which obviuosly this god knew nothjing of the fact that many of his commands and claims wpould be some day disproven by his own natural laws}! Why should we condemn Hilter for having so many jews tortured and killed and yet ignore the massive cruelty in the laws of the Torah/Bible and Quran; why should we condmen him and yet Defend Moses,David or Muhammmad? Why should we allow the bigoted christians and muslims to attack gays and maybe even be gay and join the faith{what self-hating person would join a religion which thinks so lowly of them? just because they are deciding to abandon most of it and only follow the lifestyle of Jesus whom commanded obedience to the letter of the law of Moses and commanded shit liek self-mutilation and himself beleived in that tyrant god and in the idea of an eternal hell torture, what the fuck!!!???, because they like a few of the things he said or did-or is said to have said or did; why be subtle worshipper sof him then, there were plnety of people before,during and after him whom, said and did similar things and did so w/out the hypocrisies of the other teachings you ignore???} why should they be allowed to get away w/tha and with calling men like Lot{whom was willing to let his daughters be gang raped to protect two angels whom looked like adult male strangers}or Moses{whom commanded so much cruelty and at the supposed command of his God}or Muhammad and his sicknesses.

What is this world coming to? Why do we abandon reason for such absurdities and cruelties and why do we the non-faithful or liberal faithful defend these religions and their beeing taought to innocent little children from birth??? That is abuse, and should be treated as abuse by law!!! Let idiot adults legally beleive whatever abusridies they wish, but not let little children get indotrinated w/such destructive and psychollocgially harmful crap!!! Would we be ok if someone called their kid stupid ona regualr absis which encourages them to go and tell other kids that they are stupid w/out just cause creating disunity? Probably not, most of us would cringe if we saw an adult call a child stupid or ugly,etc{even if it was technically true}, and yet we are perfectly ok w/the fact that billions of people tell their children from birth that they are sinful and evil by nature{tell a kid something enought times and they WILL become it}and they tell their children to go out and tlel other childrne this, or perhaps they share this beleif w/their childrens friends too or children theys ee around{perhaps througha faith-based charity} teaching them how worthless,sinful and evil they are and that they will go to hell forever unless they beleiv ein the loving God whom sacrificed himself to himself to appease his own anger at his own creation that he created that way. If anyone tells my child this{or even implies it by the sharing fof such a absurd faith system} I will smack them silly! If you have children or plan on it, think about the fact that "if" you don't speak out against such crap, that your child will be exposed to it and heavily{because these faiths are huge and favored} and your child may become a follower of such dangerous ideas irregardless of how you raise them in reason and they in turn will do that to their children and the cycle of dangerous beliefs will end up leading to a third world war.

Obviuosly as people of reason all we can do is peak out against thrse faiths and subvert their unfair huge degree of propogation in our culture and on our children. But the worst thing we can do is mistake "political correction" for "Tolerance".

What makes these absurd religiuons so damn sacred and untouchable, over all other views. What makes them worthy of any kind of respect at all? Certainly they DO NOT treat us all w/the same consideration or respect they demand or that politically correct slaves give these-their persecuters.

As Philosopher Christopher Hitchens once said "anything that can be asserted w/out evidence can be dismissed w/out evidence". Who says we have to tolerate and be nice about their beleifs? Sure we should treat the individual w/human dignity, but that does'nt mean beeing all "oh, whatever, that's nice" about their beliefs themselves. That kinda passivity will only hurt humanity. Beeing tolerant and compasisonate and open minded does not mean beeing fucking stupid and ass-kissing!!!

I'd like to suggest a reading of Thomas Paines-"Age Of Reason" http://www.ushistory.org/paine/reason/ , or Sam Harris's "The End of Faith; religion,terror, and the future of reason" http://www.samharris.org/ . There are also great books from former memberrs of the Christian and Islamic faiths, amongst others, that expose these faiths. There are also books that basically just show faith itself to be dangerous and useless to us in this day and age and for our future.

That said, I finish up this essay{or rant} and ask people to seriuosly consider this stuff and to check out some of thsoe links I provided.. I know well that I will be alienated by some people, some will want little to nothing to do w/me{including som of whom I fight on behalf of; the faithless,atheists/agnostics/etc, liberal pagans, liberal faithists,etc}-this is a risk I am willing to face. I simply cannot remain silent just because of the social repercussions. On that, I'd like to Note that it is my belief that spirituality and religion are not harmful in and of themselves, just absolutes and revealed religions. I am a member of the Universist movement { http://www.universist.org/ http://www.faithless.org/ } and I also like to delve into occult philosophy and some pagan mythology{the latter merely just for fun}, I apprciate religions and faiths like Buddhism or Taoism-they lack absolutes and elitism, their founders also did not teach the cruelties taught in the faiths I expose; and I consider myself somewhat spiritual and deeply plilosophical and open minded{I bounce back and forth between Deistic,Pantheistic,PanenDeistic beliefs about the nature of this Universe and of the possible or probable divine/deity/etc;}-though I am skeptical and approach all from a agnostic beginnign point and a Universist/Uncertainist methodology. So, I am not attacking religiona nd spirituality themselves, I challege faith itself{but do not condemn all}-my condemnation as any logcial persons condemnation should be, is directed towards absolutist faiths, and w/good reason and strong evidence and facts. Just so I'm not misconstrued as closed minded or arrogant.

I leave you, friends, to contemplate the philosophy I spoke, To examine the facts for yourselves, and to question your motives for defending these faiths and either ignoring or even ripping us whom do the exposing to shreds{if you are amongst those that do so}.I leave you to Consider the wisdom of the words of us open minded rationalists, us lovers of equality and liberty and haters of injustice,cruelty, and hypocrisy. But I also inform you that some of us, mysrlf for one, are losing pateince w/the exchanging ot "religious tolerance'" into "political correction' and ignorant,naeive, herd mentality, unrealistic butt-kissing. This political corrction has perhaps become the new "absolute"

Thank you for your patience,time, and consideration;

Your friend and friendly neighborhood Iconoclast

In Reason:
The Very Irreverand Bill Baker

Showdown at city hall council meeting; score one for religious right{or-should we?}

2005-09-08T12:05:00.000-07:00

So, lately there has been a battle in my city for a local "Youth For Christ" to build yet another "home" for the less fortunate called "U-Turn 3" in a certain area of town, they want the land for $1 and a five year tax freeze.There was a meeting held a couple weeks ago in the City Hall, which YFC supporters packed and the local gov't had to basically admit that it was'nt fair to the opposition,etc. So last night there was another meeting, this time in the city councillors chambers, and supporters and opposers packed the room{more supporters though; again it was stacked against us, I believe it was set up that way}. I signed up to give a delagation/presentation, I did this last Friday. I got in. But I noticed that even though I was likely one of the last to sign up they put me third on the list of like twenty delegations, right after the first two which were reps of YFC{well the first was, the second were representing the U-Turn project, I say "were" because the second was 3 people}.The City gov't and the Mayor know me well{as they should, they have seen all my letters to the paper and also the Mayor has had to deal with me on a personal level and because I exposed the Fundies meeting to worship in his office, which created a huge controversy in my city, the local paper just kept it going too, hehehe!}

So, I think they knew what the expect from me and set me up on purpose! What they did was despicable, right before my delegation they got into this big discussion about not saying anything about those whom would use this "U-turn" facility because it would violate human rights code,etc. They implied those downtrodden whom would use it, not the evangelical christian organization itself , but they still used it against me. Each delegation gets 10 minutes, mine was about 8-9 minutes{I recited it at home before going} I was stopped dead in my tracks after about 1-2 minutes and forced to leave the stand, the Mayor invoked the "human rights" crap.I'm not going to type my entitre presentation because it's too long and I did'nt get to go over it all anyways, but what I will do is type the first couple paragraphs that I did get through.:

[QUOTE]:My name is Bill Baker, I reside in/around the area that YFC wishes to build their U-Turn 3 project in.First, thank you for giving me this opportunity to give this presentation, it's appreciated. I respresent sections of citizens whom are marginilized,ignored, and even prejudicely demonized for our views; the Faithless{not just Athiests and Agnostics, but other rationalists as well, such as Deists,Pantheists,Universists,Secular Humanists and more} as well as many marginilized religions such as liberal.moderate faithists, Neo-Pagans, Satanists, and others. I will not lie, I am self-appointed here.These people I represent{many of whom have come up to me and given me kudos for my recent battles with the religious right in Brandon} many of them are either too timid to speak up{here I was stopped and forced to skip to the next paragapraph}I/we take issue with projects such as "U-Turn 3"{and the others} as we believe{w/evidences} that their main purpose is not so-called "charity" but rather subversive prosalatyzing{and in some cases-blatant prosalatyzing}. I've years experience with YFC and evangelical christianity as I was one of their culture, what I say I say not from prejudice but from knowledge and experience{AGAIN I WAS STOPPED, AND WAS FORCED TO SKIP AHEAD A COUPLE PAGES INTO MY PRESENTATION; SO I ABANDONED WHAT I WROTE AND AD-LIBBED]. Yes, why should I or any other taxpayer whom may not agree with the archaic and dangerous moral prejudices of these people{ie:masturbation and homosexuality are evil,etc} and their disprovable pseudo-sciences{ie creationism, literal 6 day creation several thousand years ago, and their opposition to evolution,etc}and archaic fear-based theologies, which WILL be either subversevely prosalatyzed{or even blatantly in some cases} to the needy,downtroden, and the un/misinformed; why should I/we be forced to pay either directly or indavertently throught the gov't fundings or the fact that we have to pay full taxes while they get a tax freeze for their prosalatyzing efforts.{HERE I PARAPHRASE WHAT I SAID BECAUSE I DON'T RECALL IT WORD FOR WORD; IT WAS PRETTY MUCH HERE THAT THEY STOPPED ME AGAIN].[HERE IS WHERE I WAS FORCED TO STEP DOWN].[UNQUOTE]

So, one of my supporters left pissed off, another stuck around with me but was pissed as hell, even more than I was{LoL!}.Anyways, I stuck around and after a few presentaions I interjected between one and another with this to the Mayor and those present: "You speak of 'Human Rights'; what about the human rights of the faithless taxpayer or the homosexual taxpayer, what about the human rights of the gay whom will be told by evangelicals like YFC how sinful they are for beeing what they are, how about the human rights{by this point the Mayor was banging his gavel and someone was trying to escort me out} of the religious groups the Mayor discriminated against back in June;pagans,satanists,freethinkers, you remember that Mayor{he showed utter discrimination against them, violated their human rights w/his prejudices, you know it, it was said to me personally and then modified and said in the "Brandon Sun"}, this is a travesty, it's hypocrisy!" By now I was beeing escorted from the chambers and the Mayor was banging his gavel and telling me I was out of order{bloody hypocrite!}.

I hung out in the halls with a friend for awhile, and spoke loudly with him about the hypocrisy going on and laughing at it all,and paced around a bit. After this I walked past the open doors and shouted "SO MUCH FOR FREE SPEECH!" and walked out of the building{my friend said something into the room too,I'm not sure what,but I think it was actually more offensive than what I said}.

Aaaanyways,in todays Paper of our city called the "Brandon Sun", they have a article on it all- "U-TURN APPROVED" and explain that the council approved of it 7 against 2.as far as how many presenters were for or against, 21 for/ 13 against.I will not post the entire article, but only a few relevant parts.

[QUOTE]"after twice deferring the decision, city council finally voted late last night to approve a Youth For Christ proposal to build an apt block during a lengthy and sometimes heated special meeting that saw one man ejected frm council chambers."

"Marnie McGregor, general manager of the Brandon Chamber of Commerce, told council that it was unfair to give tax breaks on the proposed YFC apt block because three of the 12 units would be rented on the open market, 'How would it be fair to give one landlord an advantage that is not avaliable to other landlords in the city?" she said."

"Throughout the meeting, speakers were often confused about what exactly they were allowed to say. The mayor repeatedly said that discussion about the people who would use the proposed U-turn facility was forbidden, because it might constitue a violation under the human rights code and make councils decision subject to a human rights challenge; he said speakers would only be allowed to comment on the city's sale of the land for $1 and a proposed tax forgivness. That rule was was somewhat inconsistently applied,however, with the Mayor cutting off some speakers and allowing others to proceed in their comments about the benefits or drawbacks of U-Turn facilities and their residents; the city clerk even pointed out one instance of the Mayor violating his own rule".

"One man,Bill Baker, was ejected from the meeting after he refused to stop speaking despite requests from the Mayor". Baker objected to what he described as an intolerant attitude among YFC employees towards non-christians, and said public money should'nt be spent on an organization that holds such views.'So Much for Free Speech' he shouted as he left the building"[UNQUOTE]

That last paragraph was also the last paragaraph of the article{probably for dramatic effect,LoL!!!}.Anyways, I just sent a letter to the editor about the metting today, hopefully it might get publushed, we shall see I suppose.Here is that letter.

[QUOTE]Once again another so-called fair meeting at the City Hall in regards YFC'S "U-Turn" project{Sept 7th}. But again the cards were stacked against the opposers of this proposal, and especially against the marginalized faithless freethinkers,Pagans, and liberal/moderate faithists whom also happen to be demonically decieved according to evangelical Christianity. I was stopped dead in my tracks barely a couple minutes into my presentation{I'd say about a minute and a half, for a guess} . They would not allow me to go forward because first I explained in full detail the segments of society I represented and because of what I had to say{it's taboo to speak against absolutist monotheistic faiths, but not so against other marginilized religions and also faithless philosophies}. I tried to explain why I thought it was unethical to keep throwing charity into faith-based organizations hands and to expect the taxpayer{via the gov't we pay} whom may not agree w/the archaic moral prejudices of evangelical groups{ie:masturbation evil, homosexuality evil,evolution-evil, pagan religions-evil,etc}as well as their disproven pseudo-sciences{ie:creationism according to orthodox intrpretation of Bible,etc} and their fear-based theologies of a loving god that will send good people to hell simply for not following the right religion,etc. I had other things to say, but I was forced to cut through most of it and get to the end of my presentaion and why I as a tax payer should not be forced to inadvertantly help such people of unreason to subversevely shovel their unreason onto the needy and often ignorant masses of society. I do think we need organizations like these to help these people get ahead in life, these oppressed people, but at the same time-not absolutist/fundy/evangelical/faith based, disguising their prosalatyzing as "charity' and "positive lifestyles"{yeah- one based on the ignorances,prejudices, fear/guilt,etc of evangelical christianity}. I speak not from PREjudice, but expereince and knowledge of this faith-having spent most of my life as one of them. Now, the Mayor kept appealing to "human rights" stuff. What got me ejected from the room all together was when I spoke up after listening to a few presentations and said to him and everyone present- "You speak of 'Human Rights'; what about the human rights of the faithless taxpayer or the homosexual taxpayer, what about the human rights of the gay whom will be told by evangelicals like YFC how sinful they are for beeing what they are, how about the human rights{by this point the Mayor was banging his gavel and someone was trying to escort me out} of the religious groups the Mayor discriminated against back in June;Pagans,Satanists, faithless freethinkers, you remember that Mayor{he showed utter discrimination against them, violated their human rights w/his prejudices, you know it, it was said to me personally and then modified and said in the "Brandon Sun"}, this is a travesty, it's hypocrisy!" By now I was out of the room. Sad, because we all know the favoritism that the Mayor and much of the local gov't has towards evangelicals/fundamentalists, we've seen fundies meet in the Mayors office for worship, we've seen city reps sent to evangelical so-called "business" meetings in the U.S. on the citys/taxpayers dime{when many of us don't share those theological archaic moral and spiritual prejudices of theirs}, we've seen the mayor solicit donations for evangelical groups,etc.
What happenned last night was just another shred of evidence that the evangelical/fundamentalist christian community has more than it's fair share of wealth,power,influence, and favoritism showered towards it, and that the gov't is sleeping w/the church. We should become part of the theocratic states of America! The mayor, whom does'nt know jack about human rights and equality, kept invoking it when it suited him. For shame! So, he can be intolerant towards religions he knows nothing about, but someone like myself cannot speak about a so-called larger religion that I have years experience with? What absurdity! When will this stop?
How about the gov't take responsibility for the poor and downtrodden that it has forced into that position in the first place-instead of shovelling them into the hands of evangelicals all the time?
Now, not all those at YFC are intolerant, not "all" evangelicals are either; but these organizations as a whole and this segment of the christian faith as a whole disguises their intolerance in love rhetoric and seeks the opportunity to turn the world into a bunch of ignorant creationist,monogamous heterosexual,anti-homosexuality,anti-pagan,anti-freethought/reason/facts, Orthodox Christian fools whom fear beeing sent to hell by a loving god so much that they can't see the forest for the trees.

Enough is enough!
I call all the faithless, all the pagans, all the moderate christians, the gay community,etc, to join me in this fight against this subtle tyranny{as opposed to simply secretly giving me kudos when they see around or in the paper}-I cannot fight for you on my own, join me. Stand up for yourselves! My email is westman@universist.com, I encourage you to contact me.

I have no doubt YFC are sincere about their wanting to prosalatyze those archaic,prejudiced,disprovable,ancient moral vlaues and theologies and pseudo-science to the downtrodden, I also believe many of them truly do care as individuals too, but that is no excuse to take advantage of the needy like that{and of the gov't and taxpayer}.

Frankly, if they want this they should get the MANY,many churches and well off evangelical/fundies around this city to pay for their own prosalatyzation of the bad news of damnation and all beeing worthless crap unless they serve a disproven deity.

Our gov't should be ashamed for fornicating with the evangelical wrong...er..right!

Thank you and "so much for free speech Mayor, so much for 'human rights'.

Bill Baker

Brandon
[UNQUOTE]

One of the worst things was that ALL presenters addreses were on the meeting itenerary sheet for all the public to see, which I thought was disgusting. I went to the City Hall today and told them that "If I receive any harrasment or criminal activity against me because of the views I've expressed and the fact that people got to see my address, I will hold those whom added our addresses to the sheet and did'nt inform the presenters before hands that their addresses would be on the public sheet, I will hold them and the Mayor responsible, and I hope anyone else whom may be harrased or have crime commited against them because of this will too".

Hahahaaa!!!Wow, what a showdown!
And friends, there is more to come. There is a revolution brewing against the elite absolutist faithless subverting our democracies. I for one will keep up the good fight of reason against unreason, friends join me and all the others like me, together we can make this a more fair,equal,just,raitonal, truly tolerant, ethical, democratic society and future world.
As Thomas Paine{U.S. founding Father,Patriot, and famous Deist} once Said- "There is no greater weapon against errors of any kind than REASON, I have never used and other and I trust I never shall"; let that be one of our motto's.

In the meantime, please visit my other sites/blogs "Day of Reason"- http://day-of-reason.blogspot.com/ {which is a blog to promote a worldwide "Day of Reason" which I decided to promote after the U.S. freethinkers decided to do a "National day of reason" as a response to a U.S. and International move for a "National day of prayer" and "Global Day of Praper"} and Raving Madman- http://raving-madman.blogspot.com/

Also in the meantime, please check out the Universist movement{a religious/philosophical movement of faithless freethinkers ranging from Atheists,Agnostics,Deists,Pantheists,Trancendentalists,etc} based out of Birmingham,Alabama,U.S., which has become a global phenomena in under two years; http://www.universist.org/ http://www.faithless.org/

In Reason:
The very irreverand Bill Baker

The nature of the divine...

2005-08-18T16:05:00.000-07:00

Is God all loving,moral,just,etc?....
I have a question.I used to be a Christian, first a evangelical/fundamentalist and then I spent some time as a Liberal Christian before becoming a Deist, then a Pantheist. I settled on Universist{which embraces unites faithless reason based freethought philosophies: Atheism,agnosticism,pantheism,deism,trancendentalism,etc} and have been so for over a year and a half. I have also embraced Symbolic Satanism some months ago, and consider myself both. I am "Agnostic-Deist".That said, one of the biggest questions that led me from both types of Christianity as well as to a small degree from Deism{even though I fault deists not Deism-a simple beleif that there is a creator; and still promote and Usually "lean" towards Deistic thought}.

This question is as follows:

Ok, fist off we'll disregard both types of Christianity as well as Deism, for this can be aimed at all{including some types of pantheism} though it is not neccaserily aimed at Deism but alot of Deists{whom attempt,like some of their heros such as Thomas Paine, whom happens to be one of mine as well; attempt to vindicate the Designer, or "natures god" from the cruelty and hypocrisy of biblegod-O.T. mainly but also N.T. to some degree and often,like Paine and Jefferson,etc, assume that the Creator is ultimately just,loving,reasonable,etc because there seems to be order in the Universe, even though there is also chaos and violence to bring order about, and because of the existence of "reason" which evolved into us}. I know liberal Christians also try to vindicate god from the O.T. model of him a bit and think in purely theistic or perhaps panentheistic terms.My question:If God exists and pre-existed all things, all energy forms and matter, all thought forms, and knew what would come to be from his/her/it's creation; and all these things and all the good and the evil, the harm and the help, the hate and the love, the mercy and cruelty, the chaos in the Universe{s} and all tjhe horrible acts that sentient and non-sentient species do to each other{in our case war,oppression,persecution,prejudice,rape,murder,m olestation,torture,war crimes,etc,etc,etc}and allows them and allows suffering and starvation on innocent children and the brutally selfish to gain riches and pleasure during,

All these things,like we ourselves, coming from w/in the depths of "god" whom thought/spoke everything that is into existence{which would not exist w/out having first existed w/in the depths of god}-as a manifestation of his/her/it's will and inner nature and character.In this case, as it would seem to be and cannot be escaped from, and for the orthodox Christians and muslims,etc, Satan/Shaitan/Iblis,Ahriman,Lillith,etc, and his fall and subsequent leading a third of angels to be w/him in this rebellion and all the so called harm and hate he "supposedly" gave birth to{I have a different intrpretation of the story/myth myself}, then would'nt that have been gods will-since all those thought forms and energies that led to that pre-existed w/in gods beeing and were willed into existence{as they could not exist otherwise}; would'nt this make god, by whatever conception,faith,philosophy, you see him/her/it from, either evil and bad{using these terms in a relative sense to what democratic,advanced races such as some humans think of as such, though the terms have no real cosmic meaning and are our contructs} or in the very least-neutral, neither or both{good and evil, hateful and loving,occasioanlly reasonable and occasionally unreasonable/just and unjust, harmful and helpful,etc} or perhaps none of these because she/he/it would now be emty of all feeling/emotion and intent of though as he/she/it may have then emptied it out of itself into the universe and now god is mindless and w/out personality{and in fact perhaps is now -"us"; menaing that when we do good that is god, whe we do harm-that is god}.Ultimately though would this not make "god" by whatever conception, evil, or both good and evil, or neither and empty and void?nonetheless, the concept espoused by so many people for so many faiths{and versions of those faiths} and so many philosophies that god is love, god is just, god is moral/holy/righteous;and the claim that god has no evil/hate/violence/immorality/unfairness/etc in him/her/it; that very claim is made completely void and provable as wrong.

It all is a manifestation of this gods will{however you concieve of an eternal,pre-existent creator}; meaning that it is false and wrong to say stuff like "god is love" or "god is not hate",etc, because god is neither or both; common sense{even according to faiths own conceptions that god is pre-existent,created all,is omni-etc} dictates as a fact that god is not those things that most say.So therefore all those that try to justify god and/or vindicate him/her/it or try to say that god is love and has not hate, is holy and has not evil, is light and has not darkess, is just and has not injustice,etc{whether evangelical/fundamentalist or liberal/moderate Christian,Muslim,Jew,etc; or White light Neo-pagan/Wiccan, whether Hindu, whether Deist or pantheist,etc,etc}-are liars and cold-hearted when they try to glorify a god of pure love and holiness when someone is in such great suffering; or perhaps just confused like god is confused.

I won't be like the "strong" atheist and say as Neitzsche did-"god is dead" or "god does not exist", that is a absolute claim I simply cannot prove{which is why I am agnostic}.But I will say "god is evil" or "god is not love/holy/just", or "god is all value judgements{and no one can tell another that what they do/say/think/beleive/etc is against gods will; regardles sof how cold or evil or sick it is".and actually for the orthodox/fundamentalist/evangelical Christians; the earlies O.T. writings, such as the book of Genesis have a a vision of a neutral god. In the first chapters of the book of Genesis God said "now man is like us knowing both good AND evil"{modern intpretations of this may mean something different; but the authors of these books likely had a conception of god as both the author of good things and bad things; and actually throught the O.T. god often says so himself; "I create the light and the darkness, I create help and calamity, I the Lord to all these things" from Isiah 45:7 is one of other examples}.

Can anyone logically and evidenceally refute this? When I would bring this question up when I was still Christian and struggling w/my faith , even in "question" format as opposed to ranting opinion format, NO ONE-NO RELIGIOUS LEADER OR CHRISTIAN OR PERSON-PERIOD was able to answer it and it was as if they were scared to even try. It stumped/stumps just as much if not more than the "who created god" question. Except this one has to do w/the fundamental nature of god.

You may find this message offensive or pushy,etc. But many people such as myself don't get the same respect from believers in a good god as they and their friends get from us/and everyone else. We find it offensive to be constantly bobarded in this world by this bullshit message of a loving god-since it seems it is so fundamentally untrue. Frankly, I find the fact that most will be offneded at someone like me dooing something like this highly hypocritical whilst they either offend us w/that b.s. OR condone those that do{at least much more than they would condone us to them}.
I challenge all to prove me wrong!

In Reason:
The very irreverand Bill Baker

P.S. This was typed a long time ago. I have settled on the idea that IF God exists, it is BEYOND Good and EVIL as percieved via human biases. Not both good and evil or enither, becuase this is still anthropocentric, viewing God through human dualities, IF it exists- it is BEYOND these ideas.

"Brandon Sun" reporter Curtis Brown plugs this blog on his....

2005-08-04T15:59:00.000-07:00

So, "Brandon Sun" reporter Curtis Brown has done a post on his personal blogger regarding the religion issue I've stirred up{or rather, just brought back to the forefront, though I and my passionate letters are not thw ONLY reason it has} in the city, in which he also plugs my blog "The Iconoclast Project"{this blog}, which is one of my 3 blogs{the other two beeing "Day of Reason"- http://day-of-reason.blogspot.com , and "Raving Madman"- http://raving-madman.blogspot.com }. Below I will copy/paste what he wrote and also my response to it in his "comments" box for it. Thank you to Curtis Brown{if he reads this}. Peace all. Now to to the comments{ Oh, and by the way, Curtis's site is called "Endless SpinCycle" and it's address is http://endlessspin.blogspot.com/ };

Tempest in a Teapot 2005: Civic Jesus{By Curtis Brown}
Anyone who has ever covered politics for a newspaper in a small city like Brandon will appreciate the fact that nothing newsworthy happens in the summer. The effect of this, of course, is that stories that would get moderate play during the rest of the year are blown up to crisis proportions during July and August.I spent most of last summer reporting on a ridiculous dispute where the city unilaterally turned downtown public parking meters over to the fire department without telling nearby merchants. When I wasn't talking to merchants who were upset about this, I was skulking the dark recesses of city hall, chatting with several civic employees who - under the cloak of anonymity, of course - wanted to speak about how sapped morale was in the building.Move ahead to this summer we have another summer tempest in a teapot to keep ourselves occupied. The scandal du jour is prayer - specifically, whether or not a group of Christians should have the right to pray on city property.It all started with a letter to the editor myself or my other colleagues would typically dismiss as just another kooky raving. Bill Baker has written a lot of letters to the paper over the past year about the spread of Christian fundamentalism. Piddling stuff, really, about Christian charity groups, the predominance of Christmas and a bunch of trash-talking about Pope John Paul II. Whatever.So Bill Baker wrote a letter in early June about a prayer meeting that had taken place in the mayor's office. It sat for a few days, but there was nagging questions left in people around work's minds after it was published. Why was this group there? Who authorized them to be there? Has this always gone on?Those questions wouldn't be there had it not been for a story that had been written the previous summer - again, during the silly season - about senior civic employees driving city vans, on the city's dime, with representatives of a few local churches to a leadership conference hosted by an evangelical Christian group in Chicago. Since this loosely tied to that and a few other strange goings-on, we felt compelled to check it out. We did and ever since then, this issue has refused to die.It culminated Tuesday in myself and Sun photographer Colin Corneau attending the prayer meeting. There was nothing really threatening about it. These people were kind enough to pray for me, Colin and many other people. No one from the city took part and after the hour was up, everyone filed out of there. It would seem to be no big deal, except for the question I haven't heard a satisfactory answer to yet: why are they there? Why must they be in city hall?I believe strongly in keeping religion and government separate. I admire countries like France that believe in civic republicanism and secularism, even though France it takes it to an almost-ridiculous extent when it bans skullcaps and hijabs in schools. And like my boss, Ewan Pow, I too am strongly skeptical of any group's claims not to have a specific agenda when it insists on occupying places where political decisions are made for prayer and advancing definite stands on social policy.Bill Baker has a blog where he's been doing running commentary on all this. He appears to be happy as hell he started this whole thing. He doesn't understand the true reason why the Sun has chosen to cover this issue, but that's his business. It's a free country and he can write and think what he wants. That's what this is all about.However, this whole issue, like most debates, has turned ugly and needs to stop. Frankly, it's getting old. While I'd still like to hear people's comments on here, I hope people do what one letter-writer has urged us to do and put this distraction to bed already.UPDATE ON ALREADY STUPIDLY-LONG POST: This is weird. If you go onto our spiffy new website, you'll see Google crawl ads for a bunch of religious stuff beside all the letters to the editor and commentaries under opinion.The Lord works in mysterious ways, indeed.
posted by Curtis Brown @ 10:18 PM 1 comments
Tuesday, August 02, 2005

The Irreverands comments posted in Curtis's Comments box:

Allright-APPARENTLY the comments can't be cut and pasted. So, "if" you're interested in reading the comments I left him and his readers, head on over to his blog and find the post "Tempest in a Teapot 2005: Civic Jesus " scroll down and click on his comments box under it and read. His site is =
"Endless Spin Cycle
The electronic continuation of Spin Cycle, the Saturday column I write in the Brandon Sun. For those readers outside the bounds of southwestern Manitoba, I'm the political reporter for the Sun, the regional daily paper in this corner of the world. Click here to find out not just my take on local and provincial politics, but also national and international stories from a Westman perspective. Hope you like. CB" at http://endlessspin.blogspot.com/

In Reason:
The very irreverand Bill Baker

The Brandon newspaper religion controversy continues

2005-08-03T13:24:00.000-07:00

So, the controversy I birthed continues, even w/out my help it continues, hehehe!!! There have been more letters to the editors and editorial pieces on the religion issue which I birthed or helped bring back to the surface. Before reading this post though please read the one before it which has my last letter to the editor in it-
Now to the newest stuff.

Tuesday, July 26th, 2005‘Far-Outs’ need to find themselves a hobby
Email Story Printer Friendly Version
I find Billy Baker’s letter hilarious about disliking fundamentalists, but not Christians (July 21). Just because some liberal-minded Sun editor endorsed some of his ideas, Billy now thinks that his monologues are mainstream thinking and he is a guru to Brandon. How far out can that be?If for one moment he is under the impression that the majority of people in this community accept his reasoning as mainstream, he has a lot to learn. The label that I will apply to this group is the “Far-Outs.”Since with Billy’s and the Brandon Sun’s help in identifying and naming the so-called “fundamentalists” in our community, I would not expect anyone to whine about any personal attacks since that is what the “Far Outs” have been doing all the time about the so-called identified fundamentalists. I have a couple of questions and comments for the “Far-Outs:”• Give me specific incidents — dates, times, etc. — of harm, bombs, disruptions, etc. that the “fundamentalists” have done in this community (don’t forget that some of the charitable groups in Brandon have “fundamentalists” that run or are involved in operating these community helps).• Give me specific incidents –– dates, times, etc., –– of the positive things that the “Far-Outs” have done for the community — the key word is positive.• How many finances and volunteer hours did the “Far-Outs” donate to the homeless programs (other than StreetLove since that group may be “fundamentalist”)?• Why do the “Far-Outs” fear people who live good lives and who desire to see good things happen to their community by giving of their time and money?It makes sense to me to have people work together to make a community united rather than finding some far-out ideas to try to split the community. For the Far-Outs who have too much time on their hands: get out there and volunteer, get another job and donate some money to the underprivileged. Be a positive role model for society and get into the mainstream of Brandon society. HARVEY DUTKEWICHBrandon

[Now, I tried to respond to Harveys questions in a new letter that never got published{hey, I suppose the paper can't just always print my crap,LoL!!!} A sidenote, Harvey and I know each other and have a history. Harvey used to lead a "college and carreers" Bible study group that I attended when I was a believer. He and I did'nt get along very well ebcause he disliked that I challenged his authority,asked repeatedly tough theological and moral questions that put the faith on the stands, and because I'd sometimes wear gothic/metal make-up. Also, I have a history w/his wife Rosseane, she was the reason why my mom pulled me and my sister out of a particular church when I was like 5 or 6, because Roseane slammed me against a wall for talking to another kid during sunday school class, and I think I Probably mouthed her off for beeing misunderstanding of why I was talking in class; but christ man- that's no reason to take a five year old whom your teacvhing the babble..er..bible too and slam him against a wall!!! Anyways, after the above letter I went to a church service at the Church Harvey attends to answer his questions for him, I reasoned w/him and his wife and answered the questions the best I could, but Harv twisted it all, dodged important issues and questions himself, denied, and used the most inane of circular reasoning- as did his wife, it was very sad, I've met intelligent fundamentalists before whom use more recent apologetics and arguments and whom are actually a little open to reality and whatnot, but these two are like complete fucking morons when it comes to that-absolute anti-intellectuals-though they'd deny this, but that does'nt change the reality of the matter. Anyways, needless to say it went pretty ridiculously.; Anyways, onto the next "Brandon Sun" newspaper article]

Friday, July 29th, 2005Free to question faith
Email Story Printer Friendly Version
It seems a simple question regarding whether religious leaders should be praying at city hall has turned into a moral battlefield. Bill Baker has every right in an open society to ask his questions. Should religious leaders be praying at city hall? Obviously, there are many opinions on this issue. Religious leaders have the right to pray. However, I don’t think they need to be at city hall to exercise that right. It would seem to me the appropriate place would be in their churches with their congregations. Mr. Baker in his letters is expressing his opinion about this issue. I assume he believes it merits serious debate. The responses from those opposed to his opinion are stereotypical attempts to misinform, marginalize people of different ideas, hurt, or create fear or are out right name-calling. I find this tactic very narrow-minded given the supposed nature of religious grace and community acceptance. On the other hand, maybe it is not grace that is required at all, but unquestioned obedience. I suppose it depends on your moral values. I know many people in Brandon who could be the target of Mr. Dutkewich’s attack. In fact, these people contribute in a significant way to the quality of life in Brandon. I called him on the telephone to discuss his questions but, alas, he told me he had no time for me and hung up. Perhaps Mr. Baker’s detractors could show somewhat more tolerance when they enter into public discourse. MIKE ABBEYBrandon

[Mike Abbey is a social worker if I am correct. He also is a politician whom has run for the NDP or New Democratic Party, a centralist yet left leaning political party to my understanding. Mike and I know each other-sorta, he seemed to be impressed w/me last year at a local debate between local political party candidates during the 2004 federal elections in Canada when I happenned to bring up the gay marriage issue and made a comment that everyone seemed to enjoy="democracy,not theocracy" as well as that I tore the Christian Heritage Party and Consevative Party candidates arguments to shreds in regards this issue. So, I see Mike from time to time at the Provicial building in Brandon, he and I have nice chats about politics and religion and whatever, he's a decent guy. Now for more "Brandon Sun" newspaper crap.]

Saturday, July 30th, 2005Politics, religion, passionBy: Ewan Pow
Email Story Printer Friendly Version
“Last time we mixed politics with religion … people got burned at the stake”When I read the above printed on a bumper sticker last weekend I thought of the controversial prayer meetings at Brandon City Hall and had a little chuckle, but had no idea it would be a harbinger of a group discussion I would find myself in at mid-week.A group of four women and two men dropped by the Sun’s regular Wednesday morning community coffee gathering. It turned out they are members of the group that prays weekly at city hall and conversation eventually turned to the concern everyone doesn’t agree with their position prayer meetings at city hall is a good thing.This issue raised its head in a letter to the editor in the Brandon Sun on June 7 and spawned a series of letters, pro and con, since that time.Those in favour of this prayer group meeting at city hall see no harm in the practice. After all, what could the downside of having people pray for the mayor, councillors and city employees possibly be? On the surface, it appears pretty harmless.I asked why they would want to pray at city hall. Why not meet in one of the churches? One of the ladies answered saying they were part of a group called Prayer Canada and suggested I visit their website to see for myself what they are all about.On the Prayer Canada website (www.prayercanada.org) I found the following stated goal: “To establish prayer meetings in homes and churches, as well as weekly noon prayer meetings in city halls, and legislatures across the nation and beyond. If one has not been organized in your city and you could help, contact us.”The website also informed me in Manitoba only Brandon and Steinbach have prayer meetings in city hall. I’ll accept that as accurate although the same site also advises Virden, Griswold, Roblin, Warren, Killarney and Russell are all Manitoba cities with a population of 5,000 or more requiring prayer meetings.The Summer 2005 Prayer Canada’s newsletter, Prayer Post Courier, notes at the first annual Mayor’s Prayer Breakfast in Brandon: “A more than expected turnout taxed the caterer but the mayor and other authorities seemed to show very sincere concern for the Biblical principles so clearly emphasized. We believe great results are now underway. Thanks Jack and Peg and prayer team for your passionate concern to take the city for God.”Take the city for God?In this column in the June 11 Brandon Sun, I suggested some might view these folks as a lobby group. You know, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, chances are it’s a duck. Well, they were clearly a lobby group last Wednesday and after reading through their online literature, like-thinking Christians will lobby their version of morality to anyone who will listen.Many of those against prayer meetings in city hall argue that entity and the dealings therein should and must remain secular.Another asked what message was being sent to City of Brandon employees. Are employees concerned their beliefs — or lack of belief — may impede their career advancement?Clearly, the group of six I met last Wednesday is committed to their cause, and you have to admire that steadfastness in anyone. It is also clear they take literally the following passage from the Bible printed in the Summer 2005 Prayer Canada newsletter, “When the righteous are in authority the people rejoice.” (Prov. 29.2)Any discussion involving religion or politics is pretty much always passionate. Mix the two together and any debate has the potential to become volatile. In the newspaper business, we would say this issue has legs. Don’t expect it to fall off the radar screen any time soon.Ewan Pow is the Brandon Sun’s publisher and his office is at the end of the hall. He can be reached at epow@brandonsun.com

[Also, Ewan wrote another peace or two showing suspician to the Mayor and another group, and another "sun" editor did the same as well a couple times. I do not have those particular artciles as they are no longer avaliable from the "Brandon Sun" website, but they basically are somewhat the same with different words and slightly different stuff., Now more "sun" crap.]

Tuesday, August 2nd, 2005Letter to the editor: Love one another, reader urges
Email Story Printer Friendly Version
In response to the growing number of public letters that have been surfacing in recent months over the seeming debate of “fundamentalist” Christians as described by Mr. Baker in his letter Christians Not Under Attack, Fundamentalism is (July 21) and the growing opposition of said religion from the extremist or “Far-Outs” as described by Mr. Dutkewich in ‘Far-Outs’ Need to Find Themselves a Hobby (July 26), I would like to make a public appeal for both sides to look at what has become the real problem — mudslinging. First of all, I would like to point out that I am neither for nor against either faction which has arisen. Although I associate myself with the Christian faith, I was not raised in a Christian upbringing, which has given me the ability and right to understand the point of views which are now being brought to light. I have had the extreme pleasure of knowing a large number of the aforementioned people whose letters have been printed. But being a person who has known these people and their beliefs, I have also come to know that the background of all of these people does not revolve around them slinging mud at each other in their own attempts to defend their beliefs.If anything, this constant bickering has gotten in the way of getting to the heart of the matter: we live in a community, not just a city, that is based upon each person having the divine right to have varying points of view and accepting others for theirs, whether it be Christian, Muslim, Universalist, or even atheist.Going back through history, it must be noted that the very core of our rights as Canadian citizens has been based upon the right to be free, both in religious and intellectual thought and expression. Does this mean we have the right to vocally defend our beliefs? Yes it does. But the very value of our thoughts in any form also tells us that in order to survive and to come together equally as a community, we must bury the hatchet and accept each other as we are.So in the context of what has happened recently, I hope that it will become the mandate of each group involved to put this incident of words behind them and do what is right, and do what the people of Brandon are known for doing. We must open our hearts, bury the hatchet, love one another and come together as a community that accepts one another for their differences, instead of slinging mud at each others’ beliefs. Let us move forward, not backward.BRIAN SUTHERLAND Brandon

[I used to go to church/bible study and school w/Brian. I have nothing bad to say about him. Nice enough and reasonable enough guy. I do think personally that he is beeing a little naieve if he thinks that the Fundies in question-or fundies at all, are going to be so tolerant and fair, they won't be! Though they will put on that public mask of loveing attitudes, but beeing a former one of them and haveing seen their darker sides I know well that it is all show and hypocrisy and a shitstained smile they give out, it's plastic. Anyways, Brian wrote another reaoned plea for tolerance and kindness,etc, I have nothing bad to say about it or him, except to say that I do think that he's beeing a little naeive and falling their lies and tricks. But I once did myself too, so I can't really blame him that much. But his letters are indeed well though out, respectul to all and well reasoned. Again, he wrote another one before this, but it is not on the "Suns" page right now. ]

[There are more from me, the editors and publishers, christians and non-christians, pro and con my views and the fundies views, But I have'nt time to type them all in here right now, and they are not avalibale unfortunately in the Suns archives at the moment, so these will have to suffice].

In Reason:
The Very irreverand
Bill Baker

New letter{s} to editor....{July 21/05} and a personal note...{Christian fundamentalists persecution complex}

2005-07-21T11:51:00.000-07:00

So,the other day someone had a letter they wrote to the editor of the "Brandon Sun" newspaper complaining about how Christians were under attack lately in Brandons paper and the city, and that we should return to teaching children the Lords prayer,etc,etc....as well they were offended by a teacher in a nearby city{Winkler,Manitoba} whom wants their public schools to get w/the times and quit propogandizing the Christian faith before all others in the schools{this teacher by the way happens to themselves be a Christian}.

So, I emailed a response, and it was published in todays paper{July 21/05; "Brandon Sun"}.
Here it is:

"CHRISTIANS NOT UNDER ATTACK, FUNDAMENTALISM IS."
In response to the letter from the Fouillards{July 20}, Christians are'nt under attack!
Myself and others dooing this alleged "attacking" have little to no issues with reasonable moderate/liberal Christians and Christianity. It is fundamentalism we are attacking and the fact that it seeks unfair influence over the political and social moral spheres and takes advantage of the needy,ignorant, and uninformed.
That and the favoritism our mayor has been showing to evangelical fundamentalists and to monotheists, as well as his prejudice towards those religions/philosophies he thinks are "against the grain" or "anti-religious"{when in reality it is the fundamentalist Christians who are anti-religious against any belief or unbelief that is not theirs.}.
That prayer group meeting in our gov't offices, for example, used the offices to pray against gays and gay marriage. Many gays are Christians{liberals and moderates mainly}. They are beeing told by fundamentalists seeking to subvert secular law that they don't deserve equality under the Charter because they think thier God has a special pet peeve against homosexuality.
Now, had this group been praying for racial segregation in these offices, would we be so tolerant and sympathetic to them?No!
Like the fundamentalist Islamic faith- which too easily breeeds extremism,oppression,intolerance,prejudice,irrational and unneeded psychollogical fear,guilt neuroses and dangerous mindsets against the rest of the world and it's viewpoints-this is dangerous!
We are defending the world against the attacks and false prejudiced information of these evangelical/fundamentalist Christians and their version of their faith.
It is not Christianity/Christians in general we are attacking. It is fundamentalism and it's unsafe excess influence. Of course they assume that only orthodox/fundamentalist/evangelical Christianity is the true version of this faith and that this faith is the only truly moral/good religion.
Go ahead and say the lords Prayer- no one is saying you can't. Just don't try to enforce it in our schools
and political landscapes. the way you phrased itseems to be a wish to see the Lords prayer become common in such spheres again.
Don't assume that saying the lords prayer is better than people who say other prayers to other gods/goddesses or who don't pray at all.
Plenty of atheists,agnostics,deists and other faithless freethinkers don't pray and don't teach their children too, yet they live examplary lives and raise children who also do.
By the way, the Winkler situation is a concern of a fellow Christian who just believes that all religions and non-religions should be treated equally and that public schools should not be playing favourites with one particular faith or one intrpretation of it. That teacher does their religion a service with this battle, kudos to him.
I repeat, it is not Christians in general beeing attacked, it is fundamentalism as it lives and exists to attack everyone and everything else.
This is merely self-defense.
Peace to you

Bill Baker
Brandon.

END OF LETTER.

And here is another letter from another reader that is also a response to that couples letter.

MAYOR MUST REPRESENT ALL PEOPLE, WITHOUR PREJUDICE.
I would like to take a minute to respond to the Christians under attack letter to the editor{July 20} and others who have no problem with city hall as a prayer centre.
First of all, anyone holding any elected position has neither the right,legally or ethically, to use public space to endorse anyones beliefs.
Secondly, to use that office to officially ask for monies is also unethical. It may be fine for those who believe in God to see his actions as well-intended, but suppose he were Muslim,Hindi,jewish,or any other belief. Would you then hold the Mayor im such high regard?
The problem is that an elected official is given his appointment to represent all the people without prejudice.
What if I wanted to hold a social in his worships office to pay for my grandfathers hip surgery? Is this OK? What if someone wanted to sacrifice a goat as people in the Santarea religion to help your cause? Can they use the Mayors office too?
I suggest to you that there are far superior ways to help society than to pray for someone or something. The first of those things is to protect our democratic rights from those who seek to infringe on them.

Derrick Campbell
Brandon

END OF LETTER.

Here's the deal folks. when I first invaded the prayer meeting in the Mayors office last month and there was about a week of public outcry from the Brandon Sun paper and some citizens in the Brandon Sun, it later died down. Though I continued my personal crusade behi ind the scenes; attending bethel church to silently but in full view protest all this crap they and the Mayor were dooing, I also had been protestign alone outside city hall with a sign-though eventually for the last few weeks I had been going to their prayer meetings in the City hall and protesting there{including verbally and loudly}, last time I went about a week and a half ago the prayer group told me to leave, I said that they'd have to get someone else[the authorities or something] to make me, cause I was staying,. A coupe of themleft the room and made a phone call or two then returned and they held their meeting, as I verbally protested one of them allmost throttled me{so much for the love of god/jesus eh? LoL!!!}. I left early as I had an appointment elsewhere. I few days later the cops visited me at my home and told me that if I went back there I'd be arrested! LoL!!! [so I have'nt returned].
I though the issue was fading away in the city, but apparently I really woke a sleeping giant up because a few days ago the Brandon Sun publisher did a article on how the Mayor recently solicited donations from local businessess for Calvary Temple church's youth "glimpse" program[to sent youth on a mexican missionary trip} and rebuked him for that and many of the other favours he's been dooing for localevangelical groups. Then a day or two later more letters-including this one whining of christiasn beeing persecutedand then mine and this other guys.

I've started a culture war over religion here in Brandon, I could'ne be more beeming w/pride and sense of accomplishment!

Hail reason.

In Reason:
The very irreverand Bill Baker

Of faith{absolutism},mental illness, and child abuse!!!

2005-07-08T11:23:00.000-07:00

The time to stop kissing ass has come!

We whom know the facts need to in our every day life start calling Absolutist/revealed/fundamentalist faith/religion what it is;
like schizophrenia, obsessive compulsive disorder,depression,multiple personality disorder, arachnaphobia{phobias in general},etc, we need to call it{absolutist/fundy faith} a psychological/mental disorder. There is no real difference between it and those whom claim to see or hear people or entities or voices,Zeus,flying pink elephants,etc, and things that are not there.

Like phobias such as arachnaphobia,etc. Absolutist faiths are also disturbing phobias and even worse. They believe and proclaim to the world that unless everyone converts to their biased, archaic, limiting, unhealthy views of the Universe,Theology,and so-called morality, that they will all burn in eternal hellfire w/no hopeof repreive from it; done so by the decree of a suppoedly loving Creator father{male} whom see fit to make sure his Creations/Children are tortured eternally.

Because of this, these people whom claim to live by faith, are, by proxy, living in a horrible state of phobia/fear that most people are going to this hell and need to be evangelized; that there are fallen angels/evil demigods/demons around every corner making sure that everyone worships other versions of deity or none at all, making sure that everyone stay in a perpetual state of "sin"{many of these so-called "sins" beeing harmless and even healthy parts of our nature as human animals; which can be demontratably proven by science,psychology,sociology,etc,etc,etc}, yes, these demons are everywhere, so...whatch out{nothing keeps the masses under the thumb of a system or of rulers better than fear}.

What's worse, these mentally disturbed masses and individuals are legally allowed and even encouraged to raise their children{and by association-our children} to have the same disorders and phobias; it's tiume to start calling this what it is-CHILD ABUSE!
If parents were raising their children from birth w/fear that literally around every corner was a murderer, or that Freddy Kruegers were haunting their dreamsn and that if they were killed in their sleep they'd die in real life, if they trained them to believe that Frank Sinatra was watching over them; we'd either label them "nuts" or "child abusers" or both.
That children are taught from birth to fear imaginary devils,demons, and eternal hell, and that the only way to be protected and spared is to worship the god{s}/ess{es} that lurk in their parents psyche or that are the most favoured and/or propagated for the longest period of time in their particular culture and/or geographical location; and that all those whom worship other god{s}/ess{es} here or elswhere, now or in the past, no matter how loving/just/ethical those people are, that they are headed for that childs parents/religions/cultures version of afterlife torture for all eternity with no hope for reprieve from it; and that they must go out of their way in life to try to evangelize them all and convince them all of their wicked beliefs/or non-beliefs{somehow it's ok for these competing absolutist faiths to prejudge each other,everyone else, and even variuos so-called "heretical" sects of their own religion; but it is taboo for us to speak against thier dangerous,unhealthy, prejudiced,willfully ignorant archaic delusions}, to convince others to worship the god that luks in thier parents brains or in their partcicular culture or spend an eternity raosting in a afterlife torture at the decree of that god.

Folks this IS "child abuse", lets admit it and do something about it!!!

Folks this whole thing IS a seriuos "psychological disorder", lets admit it and do something about it!!!

We must stop making concessions for them; we must stop making absolutist/fundamentalist faith{s} untouchable, a taboo to speak against in such a way.
If someone was teaching false ideas about racial equalityor false ideas about nulcear physsics,etc, would we sit back and say "oh, that's ok if these people beileve this; if they think it's true-it's true forthem"?-NO OLF COURSE NOT! Why then is faith so taboo to counter and even expose??? Why are we so afraid of it and those that propogate absolutist faiths?
They don't afford us the same courtesy, nor dothey afford fields of knowledge and evidences the proper regard{unless it supports something about the existence of one of the places or individuals,etc, in their so-called holy books;when it does the contrary they just resort to circular logic and "gods ways our not our ways; gods ways are mysteriuos; do not lean on thy own understanding; etc"-of course, WHICH god is the TRUE one then??? People,it is nonsensical their arguments!}; hey accuse our lives and beliefs/unbeliefs ALL THE TIME- the very core of their archaic doctrines is based on such prejudgement,bias, and accusations based in their ancient founders ignorance and bias and fears. For thousands of years these absolutist faiths negative consequences have far outweighed the few positive contributions they have made{which could have been reached via pure "reasoning" and evidences; and in fact have been further perfected upon by such}.

Ages ago, these absolutist faiths "may" have served a usefulpurpose in that stage of evolution/development and for some sort of order in their ancient,ignorant[said not rudely, but just as a statement of fact} societys; but they can mostly only be harmful to us in this age of profression,knowledge, and reason.

It is my opinion as a man of reason that it is high time we{at the very least} label these things as "psychological/mental disorders" and "child abuse"; and that we slowly start to implment programs and policiesthat require such people to get help{even if we have to pay for it financially in the beginning as tax payers}psychologically and maybe from medications{if required}; maybe not by "force", but by on a massive societal level speak against their ideas and start to make it mandatory that they leaRN the facts{that means, NO CHRISTIAN/FAITH-BASED SCHOOLSOR COLLEGES; THAT MEANS NO BEEING ALLOWED TO HOMESCHOOL FOR THEM,ETC}.
Certainly we need to stop favouring and showing such tolerance to their ideas of their ancient predecesors; and stoppaying lip service tothem and especially their leaders such as popes and evangelists,etc.{ie: John Paul, Billy Graham,etc}, and also their media propaganda{icluding christian rock music, christian t.v.s hows and movies and books,entertainment; such as the "Left Behind" series and "Passion of the Christ"; they should be allowed to share those ideas and make that propaganda yes, but not given as mush coverage and favour by the non-faith based media and govts,etc}.

Most importantly we need to put legal restrictions on allowing parents to indoctrinate children from birth through entire life{if you've been raised such yourself and have broken free, you know how painful the break away from these myths and fears can be} w/these dangerous ideas, CHILD ABUSE! Would we be so lenient towards parents whom riase their children as racial supremacists, I bet most would'nt be, sowhy so w/spiritual/moral superiority base don archaic biases that hold little relevance for the modern and progressing world? Yes, they should be legally alowed to believe as they believe and to express their beleif through the press,media, and public spheres{but we should also be ridiculing them and these ideas at every turn; as the saying goes-"that which is proposed w/out evidence can be dismissed w/out evidence"}, but be required,possibly by law to not indoctrinate their children; they should be allowed to teach their children about their "personal" beliefs, but then also required to teach them about every other beleif and unbeleif and not to subvert them or forcethem to believe the same thing as them; they should be required to teach their children to be unbiased{at threat of legal fine or something}, so that their children{and our children whom associate w/them and their children} can later makea more informed and more personal choice for what they wish to believe or not to believe. It's only fair; just as we are working to eliminate racial prejudice and bias, sowe should do w/this.

We need to TAX CHURCHES/SYNAGOGUES/MOSQUES/ETC, we need to STOP ALLOWING FAITH-BASED CHARITIES which BRIBE the needy and ignorant, and use their needs to prosalatyze them to do so! We must make it illegalfor representatives of these faiths to go door to door w/pamphlets and preaching; and we must always protest when we see one particular absolutist faith beeing promoted before and above allthe othersand before/above relatvist faiths/philosophies/beliefs and unbeliefs.

We must stop deluding ourselves into thinking that their beliefs are ok and/or harmless; their absolutist/fundamentalist/literalist beliefs don't hurt just themselves, but their children and their childrens children,etc, they hurt our children and our childrens children,us,democracy; on alllevels,legally,ethically,psychologically,etc.

Their beliefs, by their "core nature" are intolerant/prejudiced; why should we continue to abuse and misuse the noble word/idea of tolerance and continue to give them and their myths the power,wealth,influence that these mental disorders have over their lives,our lives, our laws and ideas, and more importantly theirs and our children and childrens children,etc.?

We must write our govts and professional scientists,psychologists,law/policy makers;protest,petition,etc, about this ,the most important{or at least one of the most important} issues facing the world.

If we don't do this, or at least start calling these things/people what they are-"psychollogical disorders/psychollogically disturbed" and "Child abuse" and "Phobias"; we don't do so then at our own peril and treat and expense of reason,evidences,progress,peace, and our own minds. To give them the wealth,power,and influence that we do, the social and political influence that we do, is done possibly as a threat and to our own,our childrens and their childrens,etc,long-term peril, and to the peril of our ever-evolving and progressing species{as well as the Terra firma/earth and all inhabiting it}.

The even worse thing is how much favour and praise the secular/non-absolutist world stupidly heapson these people and their leaders.One only need look at the amount of honor given to the Pope and Billy Graham by the ass-kissing secular groups and individuals,govts, and media{like afforementioned in this post},etc; THIS MUST END!!! WE MUST NOT ENCOURAGE THEIR DANGEROUS ARCHAIC DELUSIONS, BIASES AND FEARS!!! The govt,media,etc, must be rebuked and held accountable for encouraging it/them.

This is a challenge to asll those whom know I'm correct about this, to stop kissing ass and to stop beeing politically correct and misusing that noble ideal of "tolerance" to help these mental disturbances, abuses, and dangerous absolutist viruses to spread and mutate; I have found in my protestations and polemic arguments that many people agree but are to chicken shit to step up to the plate and be counted amongst the reasonable and progressing, there are only a few whom do so, but those that read their books,writings,etc, and yet are too afraid to at least{in the very least} speak the truth that these things are what I have just labelled them; now is the time to stand be counted friends; are we going to continue to allow the un/anti-reasonable, the superstitious,the PREjudgiced, the blindly traditional herd, the absolutist/fundamentalist/literalist faithists/faiths to continue to railroad over us and to rape the worlds progress,unity/peace, and progression???
Where are our guts, our convictions? Where are the faithless heroes? Where are the reasonable ultra liberal faithists{in other words; symbolic and relativist philosophers} and the balanced faitless, how come to many are afraid to expose these people and their beliefs for what they are?

P.S. Absolute faith/ists and personal/subjective/relativist philosophy based on reason and evidences, and logical propositions rhat don't run directly contrary to those realities; SHOULD NOT be confused with/for one another. But I am calling those ultra liberal faithists to stand up and quit kissing the ass of the absolutists. For "relativist" "liberal/moderate"{ultra} faith, though in my opinion stilla bit of a delusion, is/are still held by "reason" and sciences{etc} based people and should not be confused w/the dangerous absolutists faiths.
HOWEVER.... I personally hold this tolerance towards them, if it can be proven to me that they are a threat or as much a threat as the absolutists, then perhaps I will altar my opinion someday, but for now-I hold that they are for the most part=harmless,and maybe even helpful{on a "symbolic/metaphorical" level}.

p.p.s. a note to "strong" atheists{not just regular/personal atheists; which are ok and their conclusions-ok}; your absolute claims about the Universe/creatorology,spirituality,etc; is also somewhat absurd, given how little we still knowe about our vast multi-verse; I'm not calling for the same revolt againmst you and your views as I am of absolutist faithists; but my fear is that someday we may have to, for that "absolutism"may someday be a threat as well.

In Reason:
The very irreverand Bill Baker

Religious Freedom and the "gay agenda"

2005-06-29T12:38:00.000-07:00

Read this post about a Teacher whom was punished for writing letters to newspapers about his fundamentalist views against homosexual tolerance stuff taught it schools and on gay-marriage,etc.
at the following link to my other saite;

http://raving-madman.blogspot.com

Bill

JUNE 16; letters to editor "religion" debate/controvery

2005-06-17T12:10:00.000-07:00

Greetings, my letters to the editor of the newspaper on the above subjetcsare still happening.
Now before you finish reading this post, scroll down and read the post belowit and follow instructions from there to get context of whats going down.

JUNE 16;
Well, I just sent a letter to the editor of the newspaper in response to the Christian heritage party guys letter. But, unfortunatelt,I forgot to sent it to myself so that I could post it here and on my blogs,etc. If it actually gets printed, I will reprint the entire thing on the computer{since I can't remember everything I said}for all to read.In short I took him up on his challenge to show that faithless freethinkers and their religions do good works like Christians{fundy/evangelical/orhtodox}. So,I did, and I give credit to a Satanist, to Wiccans, To Thomas Paine and Deists, and other freethinkers,etc, in the good works and charitable dept's. I also expose the falseness of so many of his staments about how big and massive christinity{orthodox}is and belief in the biblegod; and also his talk of Christianity beeing responsibe for the abolition of slavery{I mention how intrumental fundamentalist christian thought of the day was behind slavery but that moderate christians played a part along w/peopleof other ideologies in destroying it} creation of democracy, schools{taking advantage of the fact that amny of these \schools were abusive and seved to subvert and destroy native cultures,languages,religions,etc}. And many other fallacious statemtns of his are exposed. I also point out that unlike what he thinks when he says that Christianity as an organization as done more good than any other or anyone in history;I point out all the bad shit that christianity as an organization has done{mentioning also all the good done by many christian individuals in history,including liberal and orthodox ones. beeing done alongside people of many other faiths/beleifs/unebliefs} and that in the end the best he can hope for is that 'some' christian individuals have been on prettymuch equal footing w/others.Anyways, Don't know if it will be printed. But that is the jist of my letter, summed up for you.

Also; here is a letter to the editor from someone else that was published in todays "Brandon Sun" Newspaper.

MAYOR SHOULD RETHINK DEFINITION OF RELIGION:
I was suprised to read that Mayor Dave Burgess does not include Satanism in his categorization of religions{City Hall open for worship,June 9}
I would refer him to any dictionary where he will find the definition of the word includes "belief in god, a god, or gods,or in any other supernatural powers considered to be divine,or have control of human destiny" among a long list of other definitions.
Maybe he should reconsider his words.
HUGH P .CAMRASS, Wawanesa

JUNE 15 updte on prayer/meeting/religion,etc controversy I've stirred up.

2005-06-15T16:02:00.000-07:00

Before reading this, if you have not yet read the other posts on this subject matter, scroll down and read all the posts before this one and all the letters to editors,etc. Then read this one.
Bill

JUNE 15:

In todays paper there is a letter from a local citizen entitled "ENOUGH SATANIST RAMBLING" which misrepresents satanism and of course implies it to have the very faults that fundy/evangelical christyian faith and it's Bible have. So I sent a new letter defending it,etc. Also the semi-local candidate for the political party "The Christian Heritage Party" had a letter printed. I never responded to his letter, I did however call him up and have a reasonable conversation{which he dragged out by asking me my beliefs and debating theology/morality w/me, and it was long distance I think to a nearby town, and I was phoning from a University phone,so...}, but I phoned him merely to take him up on his challenge to me to show that in his words "I challenge Mr.Baker to show us the good works done by his faithless freethought pseudo-religions". I took him up on that and got im good, teehee! His letter was titled "Christians do good works".So, my third letter appeared in todays paper:HERE IS THAT LETTER AGAIN;

"PLEA FOR REASON AND EQUALITY":
Regarding Pastor Mike Davis' letter in Sundays Sun.Pastor Mike said that I said the prayer meeting at city hall was/is Evangelical/Conservative, and that it isn't, that is is inter-denominational. Fist, I said Evangelical/Fundamentalist, not "conservative"; this may be semantics, but their are slight though notable differences. Second, I never said it was not inter-denominational, I knew that it was, otherwise I would've been more specific and said something akin to it was "pentecostal" or "Baptist" or "Protestant" or "Catholic",etc. In Brandon, most of, if not all of these denominations ARE Evangelical and/or Fundamentalist. So, I never said anything that was not true.Next, in regards my letters to the editors on the Pope and on faith-based charities, I will not redefend my opinions, I will simply say that I adequetely explained why I hold those positions and why I believe they are ethical and correct in the actualy letters.As far as the national poll that Mike makes referance to. First, there are margins of error in all polls that vary in degree. Also, regardless of how many people "pray", they are not all praying to the same god{s}/ess{es}, and even many Christians are praying to a more liberal/equality minded god{or perhaps one that is a metaphor}. Many are simply praying to{or sending thoughts out to} the ether, the collective unconciuos,etc.The Statement "our thoughts and prayers are with you" said by the govt leaders is a fair statement, it does not show favor to a monotheistic god or any version of divinity at all; it is fair and inclusive to the faithful of all faiths and to the faithless by way of term "thoughts".Many people{faithful included} believe help is needed; however, not all of them are asking for this from a monotheistic,anthropormorphic ancient, Abrahamic sheep herder/war deity. Many are against the monopoly {some Christians/Abrahamics included} that Fundamentalist faiths have on "positive" ideals and on deity/divinity} and their opposition to democratic equality rights-such as "gay marriage" for exampl{many christians agree with me on this}.Mikes quote from the book of Timothy reveals the devotion to Pauls ideas rather than to Jesus's that most modern evangelicals/fundamentalists have. they should call themselves "Paulians".Mike says that this meeting is open to "all" whom wish to come and peacefully participate. Really? How would you react to a Liberal Christian coming and praying for equality for all{including gays in marriage,etc}? How would you feel about Non-christians coming and praying to their version of deity in this supposedly inclusive prayer meeting?Those who regularly attend are not interested in debating or entertaining a protest, pastor Mike says. Well, Pastor, I think we know the reason for this. Could it be because of your desire to pretend to be democratic while praying for your faith{and your version of it} to dominate everything including the political and social spheres. Could it be that you are afraid that to answer any questions as to the ethicalness or validity of praying in govt offices will expose a agenda of wishes to subvert democracy w/theocratic ideals of the fundamentalist christian faith}?"One City, one church, many congregations". Indeed. And all of them are Evangelical/Fundamentalist Christian denominations, and this whole thing undermines and excludes those opf other faiths,philosophies, or no faith. My assertion that your version of the christian faith has too much wealth,power, and influence here by your own proclamations-shown, by evidence, to be quite true.Now, as far as Mikes attack on the Branodn Sun for what he says is "negative articles' against the authorities/leaderships; that's quite hypocritical coming from one whom is part of a version of the Christian faith which often goes out of it's way to attack, speak negatively in the press and public,etc, against those authorities that seek democracy for all{such as for gays}. The pastor is one of their most vocal mouthpieces here in Brandon. It seems that unless it serves the evangelical/fundamentalist christian agenda it is negative, if it serves their agenda-it is positive.Here, Pastor Mike is dooing to the Brandon Sun what he did to the editors of the BU "Quill" several months ago, telling them what is appropriate and not appropriate and responsible or non, for them to print. Why? Well, because he as a conservative/fundamentlist/evangelical Christian{beeing as specific as I can} is offended at the democracy and fair-minded displayed, and the humanistic values, because they do not serve to glorify his version of god as supreme aobe all others..I am a man of reason, as such I am not against all Christians/faithists, nor equality for "all" of them and us included{by us, I mean the faithless, or people of alternative faiths}. I am simply opposed to "Absolutists"{that would include those of faith and of no-faith} having special privelages or excess wealth,power, and influence. All I want{as many other do} is equality across the board.And after all is said and done here, the fact still remains that Burgess and Dvis group are avoiding apologizing for their corrupt,untehical actions-the Mayors and other "govt" offices used by any special interest/faith group is innapropriate and should be aknowledged as such, or again-make them pay for the usage like in say Winnipeg{or "tax" them-the churches}. Allthough, since some don't have the equal wealth that these churches have and would'nt be able to afford it, the best thing to do is to not allow any in there. There is a sayig about "respect all, or respect none' in this case because of these facts, the govt should respect all by respecting none{this is too Burgess}.To Mike and his group and all the evangelical/fundamentalists; don't pray in our govt offices and we won't think in your churches. However, if you want to do so, then it's only fair that we be allowed to come into your churches and think out loud like you pray out loud in govt offices. And Burgess, you owe the city an apology, instead of dodging the fact that is is wrong.One more thing, I wish to thank publicly the Sun for their open-minded and fair coverage of this issue, I also wish to thank Tannya A. Ross for her encouragement.In Reason:Bill Baker
p.s. to Brandon Sun editor. Thank you again for your coverage of the issue. Myself, and others such as Miss Ross, and other like us thank you..Peace to you
END.

Here is the letter from the guy attacking satanism,etc:

"ENOUGH SATANIST TALK"A group of us was talking at the Westman air show the other day about Bill Baker's letters to the editor{June 7 and 11} and we were shaking our heads in disbelief.Why would the Brandon Sun let some pro-satanist ramble on about how unfair it is for Christians to use city hall to pray? Good grief, so what! So they want to pray for our leadership-good!What do Satanists want, other than to stamp out Christianity and anything that gets in the way of their lifestyle? If you think we are making this up, pick up a copy of the Satanic Bible by Anton Lavey.Christians are the ones running soup kitchens and helping the poor-you know, those horrible fundamentalist-types like the Salvation Army. Christians are helping the poor all over the world and are changing lives for the better.Some of those guys I met at the air show were from variuos churches and just shook their head sin disbelief that such a big deal could be made of praying at city hall, and that the Brandon Sun would give space to a pro-satanist.I thank God for Brandon and the life I have here and I'm so glad theer are people praying for our mayor. Lets give that some good coverage and stop siding with evil.From what I saw at the air show, you not only lost respect, you also lost readers as well.Do not give into this small minority, Mayor Dave Burgess. We support you!RYAN PRITCHARD, BRANDON.

Here is the Christian Heritage Party guys letter

"CHRISTIANS DO GOOD WORKS".Re: latters to the editor by Bill Baker on Christians beeing able to pray in City Hall{June 7 and 11}. These people were harming no one, speaking to no one, but merely earnestly asking God to help our leaders to stand for what is right and good for us all. Yes, they could meet in a church or a home. But Christianity is no ordinary religion. It happens to be the largest religion worldwide and the largest by far in Canada. Canada was founded on principles that recognize the supremacy of God. Polls show that more than 80% of Canadians believe in the God of the Bible. There are perhaps as many as 30,000 churches in Canada. Further, Christianity has done more good in the world than any other organization in history. It is fitting thn, Christianity should still be honoured by our Canadian institutions. We are not really a secular or atheistic country, but more of a Christian country than anything else. Mr. Baker spoke of the seperation of church and state. What the Americans had in mind was that there should be no state church, like the Church of England in in the UK. It has nothing to do with preventing Canadian Christians, as individuals or as a group, from bringing their beliefs into politics. Christians are not second-class citizens. In a democracy, people of faith or no faith are welcome to bring their beliefs to the public square.Most nations are in terrible shape morally. Canada is like heavan in comparison, and we must keep it that way. Canada needs all the prayer it can get if it is not going to degenerate into a immoral and lawless society.I can't see why Mr.Baker is against fundamentalist Christians and considers them dangerous. Normal Christianity is a peaceful religion with no other agenda than has to been plain for all to see for nearly 2000 years. Fundamental Christians hold traditional orthodox Christian beliefs just like Jesus and the early church did. They, like the early Church, accept the promise that as Jesus was raised from the dead, so they will be raised from the dead to everlasting life. This promise is the reason why Christians want to do good for others. They do not want to stop otjer people from the freedom to live their lives in their own way, so long it is good for all concerned.Today the equal worth of men and women, and our love for children, came to us though Christians, who are also responsible for the abolition of slavery, the creation of democracy, trade unions, most schools, universities, orphanages, hos[itals, feeding the poor and many other benefits.I challenge Mr Baker to show us the good works done by his faithless freethought pseudo-religions.COLIN ATKINS: SOURIS.

My last letter, which I just sent, which may or may not be published.

:In response to Mr.Ryan Pritchards letter in June 15th's Sun.Mr. Pritchard, I have read Anton Layveys "Satanic Bible", I've also studied variuos satanists sites and other info and talked w/Satanists. Satanists do not see Laveys book the same way revealed religionists see their books, they see it as basically just a thougt-provoking but humanly flawed book of philosophy, rather than a commandment book of absolutes, they just ahppen to agree w/most of Laveys Philosophy. Laveys Philosophy, like that of other "Symbolic" Satanists is one based in rational humanism and ethical hedonism, it is one rich w/sybology and metaphor. Lets compare shall we. The Satanic Bible talks about vengeance and indulgence, but when compared to the context of the whole thing is either mostly symbolic or based in justice and moderation, not blatantly going out of ones way to seek vengeance on people for inane things, the indulgence principle is further elaborated on as needing consent between informed,consenting adults or perhaps teens. I've also read the Christian Bible, having spent 26 years as a mainstream,non-denominationa, fundamentalist/evangelical. The Old Testament is filled w/accounts of the god of the bible commanding through his prophets mass genocide,infanticide, Rape of virgins and other war crimes, it is filled w/commands from the god of the bible to commit torture against people even for the most harmless of so-called "sins". The New Testament though filled w/less of that, as Jesus had evolved god into a slighly more fair-play deity, but it still has some commands and rules that would be considered untethical for our time, and Christians in general in the west have forsaken that, whilst still calling it all gods infallible,unchangeable word{except for Liberal ones, bless their souls and informed minds}, showing their own hypocrisy in their pickiness of what to obey and what not too.Also, the Satanic Religion since Lavey brought it from the underground,persecuted religion, to the out in the open persecuted religion, has not once had any evidence proven against it of dooing any harm in the name of the religion; though some fundamentalist Christians have had fun making up stuff, or exploiting the very few cases of ignorant teen reverse christian devil worshipping cults dooing stupid things; Satanists look upon such cruelty and stupidity w/as much disdain as any other ethical humanist, even Laveys Book does. It is a rational,ethical, fair-play minded, balanced hedonistic philosophy,it has never been used more opression of others{like say Christianity} it is opposed to that kind of tyranny and hypocrisy. Though it uses a fair bit of extreme imagery/symbolism in order to show the the lack of sense and close-mindedness of those who will judge a book by it's cover, it's mostly symbology friend. On top of that symbolic Satanists are mainly atheists,agnostics, or of some other rationalist philosophy. I myself consider myself{for the time beeing} a symbolic satanist w/a small "s", though I am more deistic or pantheistic in my thinking, hence my main religiou sphilosopgy is Universism w/a big "U". Satanists have had very little chance to defend themselves, Christians have had plenty. So, thank you to the Brandon Sun for giving me a chance to defned them and explain the philosophy a little. My last word on it is "don't judge a book by it's cover". As far as Christians beeing the ones dooing all that charitable work, yes-to prosalatyze to uninformed minds of those that have been impoversished and in need and oppressed; I know, I was once part of this. People of other religions, including Satanists, are just adept at charitable work, except most of them do not have the ulterior motive of wanting to try to convert people, especially the un/misinformed people; actually, I talked to a Satanist int he States whom actually had a charity going for awhile{a soup kitchen or something if I remember correctly}, but because of whom was running it, he could not get as much support from the community and the govt,etc, and lost his charity. Christians are seeminly more charitable because they have more wealth,power, and influence than other groups of religions in the west, and they flaunt their "charity"{prosalatyzing centers/actions}, and these fundamentlaist/evangelical Christians have been able to convinve everyone of their religions ultimate goodness{whilst downplaying the cruelty of the god of the Bible in the Old Testamant} and that every other religion lacks what they've got, they bene able to successfully monopolize the finer qualities of human nature as beeing of their religion or perhaps of only monotheistic, revealed faiths; qualities like compassion,justice, ethics,etc. They ahve also claimed monopoly on the ineffable, boxed it in, and made it in their own image{as 'he" was by his partriarchal male creators from aeons ago}.Now, this is not an attack on "all" christians, or "all" forms of Christianity, I've tried to be very specific in my letters and only point the finger at the Fundamentalists/Evangelicals, I try to seperate the Liberal Christians from them. Also, not all evangelical/fundamentalists are bad or have the ulterior motiver to prosalatyze, I know "some" whom are upstanding human beeings. My accusations are levelled at the organized maintream,evangelical, fundamentalist church collective. It is because of my desire to be precice,fair, reasonable, that I have seemingly long letters. I am a secular humanist, I am relativist{as most Universists and also most Symbolic Satanists, and atheists, agnostics,deists,etc, are.Thank you all again{especially to the Brandon Sun} for your patience,open-mindedness and for giving me this space to speak these views, and also tod efend the Satanist community and other marginalized,prejudged,minority religious groups. A last comment to Mr.Pritchard in regards to his "do not give in to this small minority" comment, yes, Mr.Pritchard that is the very mind-set of the persecution of Wiccans, gays, blacks, and other minorities whom used to be even more severely persecuted than they are now. It is also the mind-set of the Nazi's against the Jews. Think w/Reason, not w/prejudice. And, No "most' Satanists are not trying to stamp out Christianity, merely to fight the tyranny and more than equal amount of well pretty much everything that the Fundamentalist/Evangelical and other absolutist,monotheistic faiths have on the world, which gives them the chance to indoctrinate more people and even to make it appear as if their version of the faith is the only good one and that the Moderates of their faith are demonically decieved.That defense made and said...I have one quick issue, and I am digressing greatly here; that spotlight disgracing our night skies, I have talked w/many people whom share my opinion on this, it is making star gazing and enjoying night skies annoying. Could the city please do something about it?This is my last letter on these issues for now, I have filled enough papers w/these issues. What needed to be said, has been said, thank you to the Sun for this opportunity.In Reason:Bill BakerBrandon
END:

I only wish that I had;nt promised the paper that I was done. And that I had enough room to write more in that letter to challenge the disgustign,monopolizing, fallacies of the letter of Colin Atkins{the "Christian Heritage Party" guy}, the stuff he spoke claiming christianity/christians wer behind the abolition of slavery{they were also behind the slavery thing itself, democracy{um...a mixture of things, including liberal christianity,deism, ancient greek philosophy,etc}, trade unions,etc,etc,etc,,,,I mean....what a loa dof fallacy, but I cannot respond, which pisses me off, aaaarrggghh!!! I only hope that enough people know that these thigns are fallacies and that perhaps someone else will write in and expose them as such.

Jebus, this is a difficult battle!

ONWARDS FAITHLESS/REASONS SOLDIERS!!!

In Reason:
The Very Irreverand Bill Baker

Pastor responds, my invasion of church service.

2005-06-13T13:09:00.000-07:00

Go to the other blog and follow intructions and read the info: http://raving-madman.blogspot.com

in reason:
Bill

UPDATE on the prayer meeting/mayor-city hall/newspaper, controversy.

2005-06-11T13:15:00.000-07:00

First to get the full context of this issue, please scroll down and read the post below this one, my original post on the matter/issue, that post wiull tell you to go to my other blog and read, do that{if you have'nt allready, and then return here to read this post;

First here is an update on what transpired after my original letter to the editor of the local newspaper about the issue of the fundy prayer meeting in the Mayors office.
First they published my original letter in the paper. Two days later they did a front page cover story on the cotroversy, with all the plaeyers opinions and what happenned,etc{Myself, the Myor, a city counsllor, well-they did'nt have anything from the religious leaders whom held the meeting}.]
The Mayors response was typcial,evasive,deceptive, and he showed a lack of understanding of satanism,paganism, and "others" whose religions he "thinks" are BLANKET anti-religious and that he "thinks" "go against the grain".

So, I wrote another letter to the editor to address his prejudgedmental misconceptions, and also to correct the Article writer for a mistake in reporting on who I am and what I do{he called me a University student, and understandable mireading oif my email address westman@UNIVERSIST.COM}.

Anyways, here is todays letter to the editor from me,a supporting letter from another citizen of my city who gives me praise for what I've done, and... the newspapers publisher short article peace of support of me and furhter questionong of the mayors and the religious groups deceptiveness:

ACTUALLY HERE IS THE FULL LETTER:{They did however altar it a bit in the newspaper from what it says here, they made it look better with less grammatical,spelling erros,etc; and in places where I SORTA REPEAT MYSELF OR DRAG ON THEY SHORTENED IT UP A BIT OR RE-WROTE IT SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT BUT GET THE SAME POINTS ACROSS: oops..sorry for the "shouting" there-the "caps lock' button keeps getting stuck in place w/out me noticing it and I don't feel like going back to correct it, LoL!!! I'm lazy, sorry}

.LETTER TO EDITOR: "RELIGIOUS GROUPS SHOULD PAY TO USE CITY HALL".Thank you for printing my letter about the prayer meeting in Mayor Burgess office,and thank you for the front page article on the matter.I wanted to clear up a couple misunderstandings that appeared in the June 9th,front page article.First, I am not a University student{at the moment}. I think that this misunderstanding is from my email address which ends with @universist.com. Universism is a faithless freethought pseudo-religion that unites Atheists,Agnostics,Deists,Pantheists, and Trancendentalists. I figured I should clear this up, again I am not currently a University student, and the misconception is likely from the email address.Second, Mayor Burgess should indeed make an apology, even if, as Councillor Barletta put it,it is an "isolated incident". Because as we can see in your article, Mayor Burgess is playing favoritism at least to "some" degree as I said before in my letter. Mayor Burgess ignorant attitude against Satanists{and "others"} is appalling. Let me make this clear to you,"most"{not neccaserily "all"} Satanists don't 'oppose' "all" other religions, they 'oppose' those ones that seek to dominate above everyone else, that think they alone have the one true way and thereby demonize all other religions/non-religions. Mayor Burgess says he's not respectful of those that have an anti-religious attitude. REALLY? Hmmm..what do you call those fundamentalists you allowed to pray in your office? I know for a fact that they are anti-religion against EVERY other religion and non-religion in existence, I used to be one of them; in fact I used to be involved w/Bethel Temple. So, I't's ok for these people whom think every other religion,non-religion, and even many sects of those that share their basic faith is demonically decieved and must be saved from that belief to do this, that is'nt anti-religious; but those groups that are opposed to that kind of one wayist arrogant attitude and are ok w/other religions that are'nt of that kind of prejudgement and arrogance are anti-religiuos, please explain the logic of this argument to me?! As far as those that go against the grain, please- elaborate, is that why you were hesitent abaout paganism too{ie: Wicca, Asatru, Odinism,etc}? It saddens me to see that this kind of ignorance and double-standard still exists here. It's acceptable for those that think EVERY belief/unbelief and even many sects of their own faith are evil and demonically decieved,etc, and to be opposed and saved from their wicked ways,to do such things and are respected for it; and yet those that are democratically minded and oppose only those religions that are like that, and do not oppose those that are'nt so much so. Wow! I'm truly disgusted at these hypocritical double-standard. I think burgess owes a public apology to those freethinking,progressive non-revealed religions that he has just insulted as well as those that he by proxy has insulted{other revealed religions included} by assuming that fundamentalist christians are respectful of other religions whilst satanists,pagans, and other groups that go against the grain {but are more fair and just in their thinking}are not- and are anti-religious. Truly this ignorance should be addressed and altered. Obviously, the fundamentalists mindsets have indeed had a subversive affect on the Mayor after all{just as I suspected}I propose that "if" this is going to be allowed in City Hall, that Brandon do something akin to what Winnipeg does, and make religious groups pay up first. But I do demand that Mayor Burgess publicly apologize for his lack of understanding and his ignorant double-standarded comments making satanists,pagans, and those myterious "others"{please elaborate on whom?} anti-religious and "against the grain"{whatever that means} and bad, whilst making the fundamentalists whom by nature of their fundamentalist faith see EVERY other belief/unbelief and even sects of their own faith as demonically decieved,sinful,evil. Also, I hope that he will apologize for allowing them to hold their worship service in his office, "isolated incident"or not, as the Maypr he should have known better, he is obviuosly trying to shirk responsibility for his mess up.I hope this letter will be published for a few reasons. {1} to clear up the "university student" confusion, and {2} to clear up the ignorant misconceptions and double-standards of that Mayor Burgess spoke and showed. and {3} to show that those so-called "anti-religious", "against the grain" groups are actually more fair and equality minded than the fundamentalists that have been showered w/praise when they are by nature quite the opposite.Thank you again to the "Brandon Sun" for allowing me to address this very important issue of religious tolerance, equality, and seperation of church and state.I appreciate it, and others of like mind likely thank you as well.In Reason: Bill Baker

Now here is the newspaper publishers response and thee reponse from the local citizen:

Here are those articles. First, what the newspaper publisher had to say about the issue{his name is Ewan Pow}, and then what the local citizen wrote{the local citizens name is Tanya A. Ross}

.EWAN POW:{quote}Mayor Dave Burgess told the Brandon Sun he makes no apologies for letting religious groups use Brandon City Hall for prayer meetings. The issue was raised in a letter to the editor in last Tuesadays Sun. The Writer, Bill Baker, questioned the appropriatness of holding, as he described, "fundamentalist prayer meetings" in the Mayors office.Mr.Burgess Told the Sun neither he nor other City Hall administration took part in the session saying "...they pray for the work of city services and elected officials and the city at large. I think that's a very credible,worthy endeavor to take on". The Use of City Hall for that meeting was not an isolated occasion. City communications staff reported this particular group has been meeting at City Hall for about three years.Forgive my cynicism, but I can't help but feel there is an ulterior motive for meeting at City Hall. After all I am sure there is adequate space in one of the churches for such a prayer meeting. Some might view them as a lobby group. You know- if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, chances are it's a duck.Last month, intergovernmental affairs and trade minister Scott Smith wondered out loud whether Brandon should rethink the choice it made against gambling less than three years ago. Mr. Burgess was annoyed, saying for the minister to even bring it up risks tearing the community apart and fuelling the racial tensions that marred the casino debate.Bethel Christian Assembly Pastor Mike Davis claimed the the city's clergy was even more opposed to a city casino today than it was in 2002.Citizens of Brandon can legitametely ask whether or not a third party influenced the city's position on casinos unduly.City Council and administration need to be conciuos of the optics of such use of 410 ninth street. Ewan Pow{Brandon Sun Publisher}-{unquote}

Letter the Editor:KUDOS TO BAKER:{QUOTE} I just read Bill Bakers recent letter to the editor{June 7}. I found it to be a well-reasoned, articulate expression of concern about the influence that a select few local religious groups may have at City Hall.Mr. Bakers letter served to expose an important issue that many others were too timid to write about. That took courage on his part. I look forward to reading future letters written by Mr.Baker regardding issues of concern to him.Tanya A.Ross. Brandon {UNQUOTE}

This is truly awesome folks. Brandon {my city} is alot like the Southern States of the U.S. heavily inundated w/evangelical/fundamentalist Christianity. To have this kind of impact for the faithless, the freethinking the non-fundamentalists, and the people{including those of faith} that are concerned about seperation of church and state beeing honoured; well, I'm shocked that the respose to this thus far has been so positive to be honest, seriuosly shocked!!! and happy the culture war in indeed on!!!

p.s. I think another reason this is of concern to the local newspaper and some other citizens is because last yeaar w/the mayors approval some workers from city hall were sent to America on a "business training trip: to the U.S. to a conference held by a Christian evangelical business group, and they were sent on the citys dime.

Anyways, this is what has traspired, I will continue to keep you informed of what happens.

In Reason:
The very irreverand Bill Baker

My invasion of a Fundamentalist Payer meeting in Local Mayors office and subsequent events.

2005-06-04T13:40:00.000-07:00

Read about this at my other Blog= "Raving-Madman": http://raving-madman.blogspot.com

In Reason:
The Very Irreverand Bill Baker

'National Day of Reason"

2005-04-04T15:45:00.000-07:00

I have set up a new blog regarding the Day of Reason" in Canada. The "National Day of Reason" is an event originated in the U.S. by freethought groups and headed by Humanists, anis a rebut to the Christian Rights "National/Global Day of Prayer".
To find out more about this, please visit my blog{which also has the addresses for the U.S. "N.D.O.R." and "N.D.O.P."}. So, please visit my new blog= "Day Of Reason"- http://day-of-reason.blogspot.com

Peace
IN REASON:
Bill

Long Live the Pope{~vomits~}

2005-04-01T11:59:00.000-08:00

To read my post on the issue of the Popes illness and dying,etc, just click on the link to my other blog ="Raving-Madman" below. Feel free to leave a comment.
The post has the same name as this one, at the moment it remains at or near the top of the page, you may have to look for it later, but here is the link to that blog as a whole.

http://raving-madman.blogspot.com

Later

On Terri Shiavo,god,politics, and the right to die.

2005-03-31T12:35:00.000-08:00

I have spent the last couple of weeks watching the Terri Shiavo case closely via the news.
My heart and mind are heavy w/sorrow and anger.
There was a time when I was adamantly opposed to euthanaisia and the right to die,etc. Beeing that I was myself a hardcore Christian pro-lifer{anti-abortion} type of person.

As time has progressed I have altered my views on this matter. I am now staunchly in favour of both euthanasia and the rigth to die. The Terry Shiavo case has also affected mindset very deeply. I cannot for the life of me understand why this torture of the poor woman or other people in smilar vegatative states, not to mention the amount of money it takes to force someone whom would have naturally died{by the natural laws of the Universe as set up by whoever or whatever Created it it all or "is" it all}.

What I find the most disturbing about Terrys case{and others like hers} is that she has been PROVEN to be in a proven vegetative state w/little to no hope of recovering from it, and close to 15 years of beeing stuck in it pretty much proves the point that she is not going to get better, barring some sort of miracle, but as much as we may wish to see miracles in such cases happen-they never really do! It's fantasy, and it's a fantasy that costs people n such states decades of torture, costs nature{and or the Creator/Creative force it's sovereignty to be natural and usurps it's place of having natural laws that regulate the world; for example when we force people to live in such states we just contribute to a overpopulation problem on the planet that is depleting it's natural resources and contributing to variuos other environmental,social,etc, problems on the planet; there is a reason why nature or the Creator/Creative force/whatever has set up natural laws of life and natural death}.

As I was saying, what is truly disturbing in this case of Mrs. Shiavo, is the political and religious circus it was turned into{and to make maters worse, the religious right forces and the the anti-abortion,etc, forces of the U.S. have promised that if Terrys feeding tube was not put back in and she was "allowed' to die-that there would be hell to pay form them...SCARY!!!}.
I have personally fought to hold off my hatred towards these heartless religious fools during the last two weeks, but they have caused such passionate hate towards Christianity to rise up in me, and I've dealt w/personal hate towards them as people{which I've fought to moderate rather than let control me}.
Why? Good question.

The mantra of these fools is "sanctity of life" and "Gods will".
I wonder, what do these clowns know about "sanctity of life" and "Gods will"
Sanctity of Life, what about the natural law of "SANCTITY OF DEATH?"
This poor woman has been FORCED to live in this state for 15 years!!! So, these religious pipe-dream fools may claim, well...her spirit is alive and vibrant. GET OFF IT!!! You can't tell me that you would appreciate beeing forced to live in a vegetative state for so long w/no hopes of recovering{w.evidence stated by mediucal professionals as such}, forced to live in a box unable to express yourself AT ALL!, unable to-possibly not even aware of the instinct to survive and to feed onself{regardless if one is able to or not}, forced to live in a biological prison that is sustained by huamn made machines!!! With parts of your brain working and other parts not, with any show of emotion on your face and any reaction physically to touch just beeing nerves and as far as gthe expresions go-dreams and nightmares and perhaps memories and that's it!!!
I say bluntly to all those whom say they would want to...LIARS!!! You are lying to others, and lying to yourselves!!! However, you do have the right to choose I suppose, but if your prolonged life affects others financially,affects the natural process of life and DEATH and interferes w/natures way of keeping nature in balance and to stave off overpopulation and overuse of natural recourses and stuff-then how can your right trump that of everyonse else,nature, and perhaps even the natural will of whatever or whoever Created or brought the natural universe to fruition by setting up it's evolution to happen!
How is it "Sanctity of life" to torment someones body and mind like this???!!! On top of this-it also affects the "sanctity of life" of the loved one sof somene in thsi kind of state. Lets take Mrs.Shiavos case here; her loved ones have forced her to live in this state merely for selfish ends of not wanting to let go and let the natural process of death take place, they have been selfish in that their religious moral views and their own desire to not be without her have trumped her right to die a natural death and prolonged hers and their suffering! Why not just move on, it is the natural way of life and death. What are Terrys family afraid of? Really, they beleive in biblegod and bibleheavan right? Well then..."if" their god were real, why don't they just let her go to be w/that god and be at peace and rest finally??? "Sanctity of life", it's a catchphrase beeing abused for selfish ends.
I can't pretend to understand the pain that Terris' parents and family have gone through seeing their loved one in this state, but I do understand that yes,psychollogically, it can be difficult to let a love done go and move on; I feel for her family- I do; but they are just playing god and usurping the throne of nature.{Now there are cases where using technology to keep someone alive is beneficial, a mechanical heart for example-where a person can actually have some quality in their given life; or...if someone is in a brain damaged state but still can have quality to life and interaction w/other social beeings or if not-if the medical professionals say that the chances of someone coming out of that state before too long are highly probbale if not actual-than yeah-prolonging is a good thing=ditto can be said for "some" cases of people in comas} But,there is no REASON to force someone to live out all their days in this kind of tormented state other than selfishness, and t is imposing on that persons will and right to die and either go back to the earth or back to the "source" and have some fuckin peace.

Now, speaking of the "source", we now get to the "Gods will" part.
I.myself personally believe either in a Destic,Pantheistic,or Panendeistic view of this "source". www.deism.org www.deism.com www.pantheism.net www.pantheist.net www.panendeism.com {in case you do not know these philosophies at all, you can check these links}.
Now, first off I'm going to play devils advocate w/their Christian conception of God, just to show their hypocrisy and their absurdity and selfishness.
"If" this god actually exists, then...are'nt these dumbasss right-to-lifers{?} and Christian right-wingers{botht eht regular people, and the religious fucks in the govt}usurping their gods throne and will? I mean, did not this very god{"if" it exists; which I don't believe so myself} set up the natural laws that govern life and death? By forcing her to live{or forcing anyone in such states to live in such a state}are these clowns not telling their own god{and all other conceptions of a god} "FUCK YOU!"? If a person is going to die w/out such imposing human technology, and that technology is not going to give any quality at all to their life{it can be useful and "good" -IF it is meant to make ones life better and more fullfilling}, is that not "GODS WILL"? Are you not taking the right from that god to bring his creation home and end her/his suffering? What good doe sit even do your own selfish egos and wants to keep your loved ones w/you in such states, you know that you feel the hidden temptation to curse your god everytime you see your love done in such a suffering state, you are not only prolonging their suffering, but your own and your gods{"IF" he/she/it exists}. HOW SELFISH to steal from the/your Creator{or your conception of it} like that!!!
These are things that the Shindlers{Terrys family},and the Republican party, the Bush family, and the religious right-to life hypocrites need to take into seriuos account! [It s also someothing that all of whom are in similar situations should seriusly consider].

I am utterly disgusted w/the religious Christian forces that the Shindlers in their despair rallied. These fuckers{the religious forces-not the Shindlers, please don't misunderstand my insult} even went so far as to invade Terrys husbands privacy, and harrased him; I saw in the paper one day a bunch of these bloody hypocrites kneeling in front on Micheal Shiavos home w/protest signs, stickers on their mouths, praying and beeing complete assholes!!! My gawd!!! If I were Micheal or even just one of his neighbors, I would've called the cops on them, and if that did'nt work-I'd have gone out and spit in each of their faces and shoved 'em off onto the road! There fake love is hatred in disguise, they are hypocrites and wolves in sheeps clothing.
Then ther are the dozens and dozens of Christians that gathered outside Terri's hospice, whom exploited Terris suffering and death to selfishly push their faith and their religious morals, this circus of clowns even extended to the upper echelons of the federal govt, they wasted preciuos time and energy{that could've been spent dooing ACTUAL CHARITY helping the poor,downtrodden,oppressed, and homelss/starving here and abroad in 3rd world debating the private case of the Shaivaos and Shindlers; what a fucking joke!!!} they even went so far as to pray and to blur the lines between seperation of Church and state, even the tyrant Bush family weighed in to prolong Terrys suffering{not a surprise; they love to inflict suffering on innocent people}!!! What a travesty of democracy,freedom,govt, and religion!!!
Christians tried to bring water to Terry agianst the law, and rightly they got arrested.
These religious fools, and the govt, both ignored the medical professionals stated facts that Terry was'nt really aware of anything around her, that she was essenitally{mostly} braindead and would'nt recover!
Nope, instead they and Terrys family took selected footage of Terri that 'seemed' like she was reacting to others and smiling and shit, which in reality the medical professionals stated time and again was mere chance, that at other times she would'nt in other words-it's nerves and perhaps dreams/memories. That footage was really used to subvert the reality and the facts, this is truly sad and disguting!

The so-called "charity" and "good-will/works" and "Altruism" ,etc of the Christian rightists and the Bushes and Republicans was mainly selfish and egotistical. Oh, how those fuckers trying to bring Terri water in her final days must got quite an ego boost looking good to all their fellow religionists on international television striving against the police and the meidcia professionlas and getting their sorry asses righly arrested{of course, you know they are going to claim a ungodly persecution against Christians and God because of this}fools!!!
Thier true hidden motive was themsleves,their religion, and their god; and Terry just happened to be a useful tool for their ends! The Politicians, well, of course the Republicans and the Bushes joined in this parade of stupidity, dooing so makes them look good to a powerful and wealthy Christian right voting group{s}; yes-they were pandering to the religious right-that was their motive!
Where were these people beforehand in Terrys case{and by the way she is not the only one in this kind of situation, she just happenned to be a convenient face for their selfish religious and political cuases}, where are they when children are starving down the street from them, where are they when there are billions of starving and oppressed people in the 3rd world? Oh yeah-in their fucking pews in their god-forsaken churches w/their nice clothes and jewelery on -in their pumped up emotional worship states of their psyches, and living in their beautiful nicely decorated suburban homes, enjoying large and yummy meals, enjoying their movies about their religion "passion of the christ", "left behind"{books and movies } and their christian top 40 music, and the millions of dollars sunk into making this propaganda shit!!! That's where they are!!!
Yes, their true colors shone through loud and clear!

Of course, I agree that removing Terrys tube and leaving her to starve and dehydrate for two weeks was'nt exactly the most ethical thing to do either; for the life of me I cannot grasp why the ell they did'nt just put her to sleep w/a needle or something, a much more humane death, much less suffering; however two weeks of that to death is the lesser of two evils when compared to forcing her to live decades in that state.

I'm sorry that Terry is dead,I'm sorry her loved ones have lost her, but it was time to let nature take it course, and let the creator- whoever or whatever it is, take this energy/matter called Terry back. It was time for her needless suffering to end,and the needless of suffering of all whom claim to love her.

Speaking of which, Micheal Shiavios love!
Throughout this whole damn sideshow, the religious right{amongst others} have demonized this poor man. Focusing on his restrictions to Terrys family seeing her, and on his beeing w/another woman.
Is he selfish to want to move on w/another woman-sure! it would also be selfish of him to not do so, as he would be supressing his natural needs.
Now I do not now whether Micheal was telling the truth or not about the conversation he and Terry had years and years ago where she allegedly told him that she would not want to be in that kind of vegetative state and forced to live; but ethically and legally as her legal partner and guardian it is right to decide whether she live sor dies in this case, ethicists agree. The law alos agreed consistently w/him for years on end; who knows maybe they gave hima polygraph or something to determine whether this conversation actually happenned or ot, and perhaps he passed, maybe she did say so.
WORST THING IS...that even "if" she did say so, and even "if" she expressed it in writing, the religiuos christian fools and their pro-life{try pro-hypocrisy} forces have stated that they'd still fight to keep her alive{which would be against her stated and proven will} in which case-they have shown the fact that this not about Terry to them, it is about them and their religion.

Now, Micheal has had to deal w/lot of hypocrisy from the religious Shindlers, his wife whom he loved has been forced to suffer in this state, and he has been forced to be stigmatized as an adulterer for moving on after so many years w/anothe woman to fullfill his natural nature/creator/creative force given needs and desires for emotional and sexual intimacy. It's no wonder he tried to keep his wifes family from seeing her at times, they seem to get a sick religiuos joy out of her suffering and their own suffering{but then "suffering" is a pillar of the absurd Christian faith after all}-god forbid anyone should be allowed to have joy,peace,fullfillment, quality of life, or the right to natural death!
However, he has still allowed them access, as they are her family. Maybe at times the man has acted innapropriately towards them, but given the circumstances, it is somewhat understandable, though no-he was not in the right to do so. But lets cut the man some slack.
Lets also cut the man some slack in the fact that he has had a girlfriend for some time. I'd love to see how long one of these rleigious hypocrites could last and repress their bodys and psyches natural needs if they were in his shoes!

Now again, I don't wish to be too hard on the Shindlers; as I Stated, I have not been in their shoes and cannot fully grasp their pain, but why they wished to prolong their own,Micheals, and Terrys pain is hard to understand w/out seeing the selfish motives for it. I am not trying to attack them, I feel sympathy for them, but...
Also, Micheal would have shown much more compassion for his wife had he begged the courts to stick a needle in her and end her suffering quickly and humanely as opposed to yanking out the feeding tube and alowing her to starve and dehydrate for two weeks. But, from what I'e heard many medical professionals said that she would not feel the pain{or not much anyways} die to beeing mostly in a vegatative near braindead state.

Now my personal view has of the last little while become that these kinds of cases, because of their emotional,phsychollogical,financial, and other strains on loved ones, other people, the hospitals, human population, nature, whatever possible Creator/Creative force "may" exist, and the physical and sub/unconciuos burdens and perhaps even spiritiual burdens{like beeing locked in a cell not ale to communicate or interact at all}on the individuals in such states. that the law should be changed, people because they do not wish to part w/their loved ones should not be legally allowed to force their will for this on their loved ones{unless stated in a living will that they wished to be kept alive} that are in such states or on themselves, the medical professionals, society at large,nature,etc.
OR...In the very least, such cases should not be allowed to be made into such circuses, and facts should weigh over religious biases, compassion over selfish deire to not lose a loved one to natural death and over religious/theological beliefs{which in a case like Terry Shiavos, religion has harmed this poor woman and her loved ones; not mention the world at large in this case becaise of the circus that the religious right made it into, so much}.
Of course, I do not have the final say, the medical professionals and law decide such things.
Just stating my current emotional view.
I also think, that whether or not my view in the few sentences above are right or not; lets say they are'nt{I'm open to that possibiity, and could alter my opinion on that particular part of the argument}that such circuses around such private matters should not be allowed. And for this,sadly, Terrys parents were to blame, Micheal never asked for this circus,this travesty, they did, they begged the religious right and the Bushes and the republican party to step over the ethical line and make this into a circus, they allowed their daughters suffering and death to be made circus and a mockery of! They even requested it.

As for the Buses, specifically Jeb Bush{Florida state governer; where this happenned} in this case, they should lose their power positions since they abused them{which is nothing new for the Bush fmaily criminal religious/elite dynasty}.
The religious right leaders whom put on this circus sidshow outside Terrys hospice and outside Micheals private home, should ALL be rounded up and fined financially for it; the one sin charge of it{:Jesse Jackson for example} should be fined very heftily!!!
And such a mockery should never EVER be allowed to occur again w/out seriuos consequences; they cheapened Terris sufeering and death.
I'm sad that Terrys is dead, I'm more sad[and disgusted] that she was forced to suffer{or live} in that state for so long in the name of "god" and "religion" and "sanctity of life"{all of which have been spit upon by this}; However I'm very glad to hear that her suffering is over, that this charade is done.
I still feel sympathy for her parents and family{and even moreso for Micheal}, though it was her parents and family that ended up initiatiting this circus charade{religious and political} and exploitaion of Terry;
but to the religious rightists whom never knew Terry personally or hardly knew her{or her family and Micheal for that matter}, I say -HA! See the power of your impotent god to keep he alive!
I get a gleeful satisfaction out of seeing their prayers and their wasted efforts to subvert Terrys rights, and natures rights,etc, come to naught!!
Gee... does'nt the Babble..er..Bible teach that even a shred of faith{as small as a mustard seed} in a believer in Jesus as Gods incarnate/son/propitiation -that such such will have gods/christs spirit work great miracles through each and every believer{not just designated "faith healer' clowns-whom all turn out to be a joke anyways}- "even greater things tha will you do, cause I go to the father"-Jesus, "whatever you aks in my name, will be done"{of course your retort is- "if it's according to gods will", HOW CAN IT 'NOT' BE GODS WILL TO NOT ONLY KEEP SOMEONE IN THAT KIND OF STATE ALIVE- BUT ALSO RESTORE HER HEALTH FULLY TO HIS/HER/ITS GLORY BEFORE HUMANKIND!!!; you all pick and choose, if something bad happens-it's gods will, something good happens it's Gods will; gee let me try tis, I believe in the purple elephant of heavan-so when something good happens- I project it onto the purple elephant, if something bad happens-visa versa; see the lunacy here???}.
As Neitzsche said "God is dead"{or at least bible-koran-torahgod/montheistic/personal and anthropormorphic god is dead}, or it exists but is indifferent to us-like a scientist or something; or perhaps not eterrnally indifferent, but temporarily indifferent having bestowed us through evolutiuon w/reason and the ability to look at the universe and personally/subjectively/relativistically see design, and/or how abou this-it does'nt care to be worshipped-it's beyond that kinda pettiness!!!

I can understand emotionally the selfish motives of both Terris parents/siblings/etc and Micheals too. They have all treated each other like dirt, and they need to admit their wrongs in this and move on. Though the major reasons for the demonization of Micheal{having a girlfriend}-that is unfair, at times not allowing her family to visit-he acted unfair, but then again-so have they! I am prone to side more w/Micheal however, and I do think that he made a grave mistake in not begging the law to put her to sleep humanely as opposed to the starvation/dehydration-slow death process.

I leave this post w/some comments about this case
from some fellow posters from the"Faithless Community"{ www.faithless.org } websites Mesage boards/forums{ a sister site and project of the Universist movement- www.universist.org }:: I think their comments are quite fitting for this post: All their names are their pseudonymns from the forum not their real names and are in= \ /

"If these people care so much about 'gods will', then they are beeing hypocritical to that will. She would've died 15 years ago, medical science is what saved her life{NOTE: from me-Bill Iconoclastithon Baker; OR PROLONGED HER SUFFERING}"- \Age of reason/ {note from me}

"Terri did'nt leave the bad legacy...she showed the rest of the world how sick, melodramatic and hypocritical Christianity can be"- \Helmespc/

"She died.... what a crappy legacy her parents and these fools{NOTE; from Bill= the Christian right/Bushes/Republicans} have left her with"- \Speedsashe/ [correspind this one with the one above it]

"So many people are makng money out of Terry Shiavos case and playing politics, most of whom could care less about her condition"-\Busman/

"Those Lawyers must be rollin in it..."- \Helmespc/

"Seems to me, the people that don't know god are these people bringing her water. If this is a 'god' thing...god has stopped her mouth from taking in food, she does'nt even KNOW to eat when she is hungry; in the natural world{the last 500,000 years} such a beeing in this state would have died. Yep, shge would've starved to death. It is through mans artificial means of keeping this poor shell of a human alive! {NOTE: from Bill= to suffer and be a needless burden on her loved ones and on nature,etc}.
It's horrible that this has to happen, these situations such for anyone involved, it's hard to watch someone you love die, but...dieing is a part of life, t's OK. It's hard to let someone go, but I really feel the parents are beeing selfish. Let her move on damn it! hey are Christians, so they believe she will be floating off to heavan to be w/the lord. Well then let her float away, she's in a horrible situation. She does'nt even KNOW to fullfill the instict to nurish herself... come on people!"-\Psychenaut/

And finally, one for the biblegod-worshippers to think about;

"Amazing! If tens of thousands{perhaps more} people of 'faith' were earnestly praying for Terrys life to be spared and it was'nt, that means one of three things:
1}God{as they concieve him} does not exist
2}God heard but chose not to answer their prayers
3}GOD WANTED TERRY TO DIE!
he certainly does'nt need a feeding tube to save someones life{NOTE: from Bill=or perhaps maybe-heal them!}or at least he SHOULD'NT-beeing god and all!"- \Zeon/

Let compassion reign only when it is mixed w/REASON and evidences, otherwise it is just hypocrisy,fake piety, and lies!!!-The Very Irreverand Bill "Iconoclastithon" Baker

Formation of the Iconoclastithon{my anti-testimony}/ABOUT ME{and this blog}

2005-03-19T13:10:00.000-08:00

Name: Bill Baker Age:26 Gender/sex:Male, Sign: Libra, D.O.B.:October 19th/1978 , Sexual Preferance:Heterosexual , Race: All and yet None.

Religious/irreligious beliefs:"Eclectic Freethinker"= Universism{w/leanings towards Pantheism,Deism,and Panendeism}, Elements of Satanism/Luciferianism, elements of Neo-Pagan thought and Taoist thought{all upheld and encircled by a spirit of Agnostic Skepticism} and a respect for any progressive/relativistic/non-absolutist/non-revealed religion and philosophy.

Patron Unsaint{s}: Lucifer/Satan

Other Unsaints: Thomas Paine, Fox Mulder,

The god/ess of my choice: REASON

Where I reside: Soutwestern Manitoba,Canada, North America, Earth, this Social System,The Milky Way Galaxy, This particular Universe and reality.

:Note: the following anti-testimonial deals specifically w/my life in regards to my spiritual journey, and omits most info in relations to other aspects of my life; However, if anyone wishes to know more about me, they may ask here or email me and ask, email is either Iconoclastithon@faithless.org or westman@universist.com

I, Bill Baker, raised as a Christian, and having asked Jesus into my heart while I was a little boy of about 5 or 6;
continued in that faith my whole life and did the "brainwashed again"...err..."Born again" routine and dedicated myself to the Christian faith and it's Propagation around 16-17 years of age. I spent several years as a devoted Christian metal-head, my mission was to reach out with the good news of the gospel of Christ{ahem, try bad news of the idea of damntion based on theoloigcal beliefs} to metal-heads and other people on the fringes. I was a self-proclaimed{as my chosen pseudonymns} "Anti-Satan" and especially "Lucificide"{murder of Lucifer/as in the Lucifer of Christian mythology}.

Like a good drone, I tried to supress doubts about thw faith and believe the weak arguments of Christian apologetics. In February of 2001 my Mother was taken by Cancer, this propelled me into seriuosly questioning the integrity of the God of the Babble....er...I mean Bible.

To backtrack a bit, I had spent those several years paranoid that I'd commited the "unpardonable sin"{Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit} due to the phrase "Fuck the Holy Spirit" occuring in my mind; this led to more blasphemous thoughts, which in turn led to other horrible kinds of obsessive thoughts{due to Obsessive Compulisve Disorder} and years of psychological torment; if there was a hell, my mind felt like it wa sin it. Blasphemy, violence,perversions, of every kind dominated my mind. In retrospect, if I had not heeded the thought crime crap that Jesus of Nazareth and Jehovah,their so-called propehets and saints talked of in the Bible, I I had not felt so guilty for regular sexual thoughts and masturbation and accompanying natutality about women, or fear and guilt for averager angry thoughts, I would not have developed O.C.D., and if I had still devleoped it-it would'nt have been as bad and as agitated. However, because of such, it was bad enough that I had to drop outa high school with about half the required credits, which has led to years of issues and of living w/Parents and beeing on Welfare until the last year, Now I am on my own, still on welfare and having a difficult time finding work to due to health issues; however, I am getting my G.E.D. and planning to go to University, all this progress as a result of dropping the dangerous lie of the broken and posion tipped crutch of revealed faith.

After my mother passed, coupled w/years of mental torment and guilt, I spent several months questioning babblegod and raised alot of hell w/forbidden questions and exposing of faith at Bible study groups,Church, and w/religious leaders and groups in my area that I was connected to.
In September, 2001, after allmost converting to Wicca{a fine religion in itself}, I embraced my former faith in full swing, with the opinion added on that God was not engendered and that the Bible was not infallible.

For about a year, I remained such; and due to a book about homosexuality and sexual issues from a ultra-liberal Bishop named John Shelby Spong{ "Living in sin; a bishop rethinks human sexuality"; as well as one of his other books "A new Christianity for a new World"} leant to me by a good friend, I became a liberal Christian for about a year or so.

After a time of scrutinizing the faith, I renounded in in full in January 2004 and discovered Deism. I continued on as a Deist and soon co-opted some Pantheistic ideas{and Panendeistic} as well. In late spring of 2004 I discovered Universism{Not to be confused w/Universalism,Unitaianism, Unitarian Universalism}-a faithless freethought philosophical pseudo-religion/umbreall social movement of Athiests,Agnostics,Deists,Pantheists,Trancendentalists,etc, and have since been devoted to this freethought movement and it's principles; though as of recent I started looking into Neo-Paganism/Wicca agaim, then I looked itno and adopted some ideas from some branches of Satanisn/Luciferianism, as well as some Neo-Pagan and Taoist ideas and principles as well. As such, I am now a "Eclectic Freethinker".

Since I first became a freethinker, I've set about to learn more about and to expose the Christian faith{and revealed religion in general} and it's fallacies and dangers.
I continue to learn more all the time that makes me more ardent to ideollogically and socially and politically challenge and expose Christianity, the other Abrahamic faiths, and all revealed religion that is absolutist and one way-st, that claim a monopoly on deity{the divine and the larger questions}/love/peace/eternity/ethics and morality/etc; and yet when their 'holy' books are read abjectively, Biblegods nature is one mor elike the tribal males whom created him{and of the same nature that Satan/lucifer was "FRAMED" for}= jealous,vengeful, poor self-esteem which needs to have "his" ego-stroked like a child, a violent but masked as a "loving father" tyrant!

That is the purpose of this blog, to do just that-expose.
Now, I still believe personally/subjectively/relativistically in the "high possibility/or probability" of some form of Creator or Creative and sentient/intelligent Force or energy that either kickstarted it all or is a part of it all and evolving as it all evolves as it is is everything.
I bounce back and forth between the belief in the scintist like watch maker grand architect of Deistic thought and new-agey Pantheism/PanenDeism{the idea that the Universe itself IS this thing or at leats a "part" of this thing, and consequently we too are ourselves "gods/goddessess" or rather we are collectively along w/all that exists here-this thing/god/creator/force/Cosmocreator/dark energy/dark force/black flame/light force/whatever the hell you'd like to call it}. I don't claim to "love' this thing, because I have no proof that it loves me/us, I certainly admire it's power and the things it has created though, and I am thankful for the gift of "reason" that it set to be in the process of evolution that would eventually start to grow w/in us as sentient living beeings.
I also am drawn to the idea that our "collective in/conciuos" is this thing, and all gods and goddesses,et,c are just mainig\festaions of our own will and have a pseudo-life as arhetypes because of our creating them and giving them existence and power{which uis why some of them need to be killed in my opinion; jealous and childish tyrant gods like Yaweh/Christ,Allah,etc for example; other ones can have their uses, and I especially am drawn to the uses of the mythical fallen and rebel demi-gods and angels whom rebelled against tyrant head gods and sough to bring enlightenment to the humans,etc}. I also see nothing but tyranny in those particular Creator gods and I see hypocrisy w/in their Christs and prophets and so-called "saints".
Since I do not know quite enough about Islam or about Judaism{outside of what is in the Hebrew Scriptures used and perverted by the Christian bible and faith}, my focus will for now be mainly or only on Christianity.

There will be several different parts to this blog.
Info on my hopeful future project to start a "Church of Apostasy" a pseudo-religion/irreligion/umbreall social movement. As well as exposes on the Christian money machine or exsess wealth and power and influence, and Christian fashion and entertainment called "Cash-in of the Christ"; also exposes on Christian apologetics rhetoric of the popular catchphrases that are absurd and to some extent even defy what their Babble{Bible}says. I will include letters to editors and updates on my activism against faith/christianity; as well as other activism; a section containing occaional rants{of variuos kinds} of mine; sections exposing Bible atrocities and contradictions and exposes of the true Character/nature of babblegod and of Jesus. A section w/all sorts of links. And whatever else my warped apostate brain comes up with.

Hold on tight, fasten your seatbelts, and be forwarned, Icons of Christianity will be smashed and pissed on! Many will be offended to varrying degrees, many will be impartial and have no opinion for or against this, some will possibly herald me as a hero and/or love me{please no hero-worship; but your praises for my worl or your critisizms are quite welcome}.
I encourage anyone whom wishes to leave a comment in regards to any of these particular sections{favorable or not}; and/or you can email me.
Iconoclastithon@faithless.org or westman@universist.com .
Grab a bag of popcorn, hold a loved one close for comfort, oh....and prepare for an assault on cherished ideologies, as I perform Iconoclastithon{a marathon of iconoclasm} on them!

Peace and enjoy.

NEWS: March 18/2005

2005-03-18T13:23:00.000-08:00

Well, it's been a few moths since I set this blog up, and I've not added a damn thing.
I figure it's time to add more. I've been busy with other stuff, such as getting my GED and also enlightening myself philosophically,and with things that are a waste of time too.

I plan on adding some new posts w/in the next couple of weeks or so, and I hope to add a bit to the ones allready existing{such as "Cash-in of the Christ"}, so for anyone whom actually has been here and has had the heart to keep checking in, thanx. I will not dissapoint much longer. Patience,my friends, expect some new blasphemy soon.

In the meantime, check out some of the sites in my "LINKS" post. I just added a new link for fellow Blasphemer Roger Martinez{you may know him as the brave soul whom was a part of the Christian thrash/death metal band "Vengeance Rising" years ago, whom bravely abandoned the herd of Christ and bathed himself in the blood of freethought, and has since been working on Making the "Vengeance Rising" moniker into a battleflag for freethought,blasphemy, and other sweets.

I will also be adding other new links soon to other freethought sites, and to Satanic sites, keep your eyes peeled for them.

The war against absolutist faith, and against Christianity, is not a dead war, it's just a subversive and therefore much more dangerous one to those absurd ideologies; and my part in the war is not dead either, I am getting back on the stallion of freethinking and blasphemy, the Iconoclast Project is soon to be ressurected and will march forth.

Stay tuned...

In Reason:
Bill "Iconoclastithon" Baker

LINKS!

2005-01-26T15:42:00.000-08:00

My other blog= "Raving Madman"- http://raving-madman.blogspot.com
and my other blog: "Day of Reason": http://day-of-reason.blogspot.com

Religion/philosophy that I personally embrace or endorse as viable:
United Universists= http://www.universist.org/ {I am a member}
The Faithless Community{a United Universist project}= http://www.faithless.org/ {I am a member}
World Union of Deists= http://www.deism.com/ {I am a flip-flopping Deist}
Deism, The union of Reason and Spirituality= http://deism.org/
Deistnet= http://www.deistnet.com/
Universal Pantheist Society= http://www.pantheist.net/ {I am a flip-flopping Pantheist}
World Pantheist Movement= http://www.pantheism.net/
Panendeism= http://www.panendeism.com/ {This is a phiossophy I also like, it's like Pantheism,Panentheism, and Deism mixed as one}
Celtic Connection; Wicca and Paganism= http://www.wicca.com/ {I fully endorse; though am not one; the Wiccan faith/religion-or at least some branches of it; I am a friend of the Wiccan/pagan/and neo-paan religions and community; however there is a trend of Favoritism shown towards Christianity and the other Abrahmic faiths beeing shown by many western Wiccans/Neo-Pagans, but this is not nessacerily reflective of Wicca and Neo-Paganism themselves}
Neopagan= http://www.neopagan.net/ {same as above}
Bhuddhism= http://www.budhanet.com/ {Buddhism is the one ancient religion that still exists today as a major world religion that I respect for the most part}
The Agnostic Church= http://www.agnostic.org/ {This is by means what all agnosticism is; but I thought I'd include it; I am ot agnostic-but I personally view it as the most rational starting point in matters of theology,etc; and, it's the view I think all children should be raised with while beeing taught about ALL religions and philosophies-as agnosticism is the most unbiasd perspective}
Satanism/The "First Church of Satan"= http://www.churchofsatan.org/ {this is not the well-known "Church of Satan"-of Anton Lavey; though they do asociate w/Laveyans, they are more balanced{kinda like Taoists};Laveyans on the other hand are more elitist, which given what they are, is not nessacerily a bad thing}
"The Church of Lucifer":= http://luciferian.org/ or http://www.churchoflucifer.org {Similar to Satansism, but w/slight differences
Focuses more the LUCIFER="light-bearer" principle, one of the four crown princes of hell; I am a member of this group.}
"Church of Satan": http://www.churchofsatan.com/

Vexen Crabtrees "Satanism" site: http://www.dpjs.co.uk/ {Vexen is a gothic satanist. this site is VERY well done and professional, and very informative and enlightening}
Vexen Crabtrees personal site/page: http://www.vexen.co.uk/vexen/

Diane Vera's "Theistic Satanism" site{very in depth and balanced approach to Satanism: http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/dvera/

Religious Tolerance{a site dedicated to unbiased and proper info about ALL world religions and philosophies}= http://www.religioustolerance.com/

Thomas Paines "Age of Reason" -online= http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/age_of_reason/index.html/
http://libertyonline.hypermail.com/paine/AOR-Frames.html
http://www.ushistory.org/paine/reason/

Famous Apostates:
Charles Templeton{Co-Founder of Youth For Christ, and former fellow evangelist of Billy Grahams}= http://www.templeton.com/charles {this is his Son Brads site, and is about both of them}.
Pages devoted to Salman Rushdie and his works{apostate Muslim, author of "The Satanic Verses"}= http://www.subir.com/rusdie.html/

Roger Martinez{famous ex-christian founder of Christian thrash/death metal band "Vengeance Rising"}= First- Rogers newest site/blog entitled "Warpath of the Fatherless" = http://vengeance-rising.blogspot.com {on which he has a Testimonial written by me entitled "Cry of the Iconoclastic Heart-a warpath testimonial"}, and next his older site= http://www.fortunecity.com/tinpan/dj/446/satanism.html/

Gabriel C. Zolmans sites:
"Tunnel at the end of the light"/"Subverse Media":= http://subversemedia.bravehost.com/
And his blog= "The Amen Corner": http://the-amen-corner.blogspot.com

Society for Humanistic Jews= http://www.shj.org/

Ex-Christians= http://www.exchristian.net/
Losing my Religion= http://www.losingmyreligion.com/

Ex-Muslims= http://www.faithfreedom.org/
http://www.secularislam.org/

Reason= http://www.reason.com/

Exposing Xianity Revealed Religion= http://www.evilbible.com/
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/
http://www.religionisbullshit.org/
http://www.antichrist.net/
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.html

Sam Harris{author of book, "The end of faith; religion, terror, and the future of reason"}= http://www.samharris.org/

Land Over Baptist Church{satirical site}= http://www.landoverbaptist.org/

Atheist sites and seperation of Church and State\ Secular\Rationalist:
The Secular web/ Internet Infidels= http://www.infidels.org/
Godless= http://www.godless.org/
Athiest law= http://www.atheistlaw.org/
The Brights= http://www.the-brights.net/
Athiest Alliance= http://www.atheistalliance.org/
http://www.athiesm.com/
http://www.positiveatheism.org/

Freethought Today Newspaper= http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/

Evolvefish= http://www.evolvefish.com/

Skeptic Magazine= http://www.skeptic.com/

What Is Enlightenment magazine{ open-ended spiritual zine, not athiest}= http://www.wie.org/

Humanist sites:
Humanist Association of Canada= http://hac.humanist.net/
Coucil for Secular Humanism= http://www.secularhumanism.org/
Humanist association of Ottawa= http://ottawa.humanists.net/

Freedom from religion foundation= http://www.ffrf.org/

The Freethinker zine= http://www.freethinker.co.uk/ {secular humanist monthly}

Bible Atrocities:
http://www.evilbible.com/
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/atrocity.shtml/
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/greywlf/biblegod.html/

THE BURNING TIMES= http://www.malaspina.com/burnwitc.htm

Religious Sites for informational purposes {some which I may personally endorse and/or condone; others I'm not as keen on or am personally undecided about}:

will be back w/more sites; stay tuned.

The Cash-in of the Christ

2005-01-25T10:50:00.000-08:00

This section will contain info about the "cash-in" and the "fashion" of the Christ.
In other words, it will reveal and expose the mountain of wealth, greed, gluttony, materialism, and deception of the den of thieves called the Evangelical Christian entertainment media and industry.
It will also contain info on their political,social, and financial wealth,influence,power and clout on our so-called democracy.
I am in the process of researching this, so stay tuned, I will eventually start posting info here.
And always remember, WWJW- What Would Jesus Whore?

The Iconoclast Project

2005-01-23T14:53:00.000-08:00

The Iconoclast Project

THE FIRST CHURCH OF APOSTASY

2005-01-23T14:09:00.000-08:00

The Iconoclast Project

THE FIRST CHURCH OF APOSTASY:

This is my Project to start a pseudo-religious/ social movment to unite apostates of the Abrahamic faiths and "One way-ist" faiths{EX-Christians,Islamics,Jews,etc. To reveal the positiveness of the term that people see as negative, 'Apostasy'.

The first Church of Apostasy:

The 3 principles/goals of the Church{or fellowship} of Apostasy are as follow;
1}First and Foremost, to unify in fellowship, apostates of all "One Way-ist" revealed faiths{ie:Ex-Christians,Ex-Islamics,Ex-Judaism,etc..} for mutual support,etc.
2}To go forth and share the good news of freethought; to encourage other people to apostasize.
3}To challenge/oppose the excess social,political,financial,ideological power and stronghold of "One Way-ist' faiths; to do so non-violently, yet with little mercy ideological. To expose their deceptions and their myths as the danger to human progress and unity that they are.

The Church/Fellowship{Mosque,Synagogue} of apostasy will be/is an irreligiuos social movement guided by the aforementioned 3 principles/goals. It will be/is a pseudo-religion/umbrella movement to unite in spirit and purpose. As well as for mutual support, apotates of all "One Way-ist" faith{the Abrahamic ones especially}.

The movement/fellowship will adopt terms/labels/etc such as "Religion", or words such as "Irreverand"{reverse "reverand"},etc, for novelty,aesthetics,symbolism; as well as for the purposes and convenience of gaining notoriety, and for the purpose of being accepted as more legitimate{or as legitimate as a movement of it's nature can be accepted as being}.
To be more precise, the church of apostasy will be non-hierarchal,non profit{ and non-prophet}, with no governing or central absolute authority{ies}.
I, the Very Irreverand Bill Baker, will be the intitiator and a co-ordinator of this "church"/movement, but I will not hold any absolute authority; my vision is merely unity and co-operation amongst all apostates, the we be proud to be whom/what we are. I would expect no less than that any attempt by me or anyone else to exercise absolute authority{like a cult, or a regular religion} would cause anyone whom joins to make sure we are held accountable, or that they leave and denounce the movement. This movement will be a relativistic,highly individualistic, and democratic one. Though there will be movement co-ordinators/directors, and movers and shakers, "all" will be 100% equal.

The Irreligion, which as stated before, will be a "social movement". As such, co-ordinators and members alike may be of any non-One Wayist philosophy,religion,etc. The diversity will be wide; Atheists,Agnostics,Pantheists,Deists,New Agers,Pagans/Neo-Pagans/Wiccans/Witches,Buddhists/Taoists,Secular Humanist,Objectivist,Universist, The list can go on extensively. They will all share the commonality of being apostates of "One Way-ist"/revealed faiths{especially the ones of Abrahamic origins}; for obvious reasons, apostates whom left one revealed/one way faith for another will not be admitted into this freethought movement.

We will be somewhat similar to the Universist movement, except the apostasy movement will embrace people whom have faith, so long as that faith is not "One Way-ist". We will also be somewhat similar to Universalism, except we will not accept not condone "One Way-ist" religions. On top of this, unlike both of these movements, we will be exclusively apostates.
It will be a movement free from doctrine{though containing some somewhat Universal principles} or dogma in the traditional sense; we will share
Certain "principles", and the movement itself will contain certain "principles" which will be flexible and relativistic to the individual.

This project is barely under way, and it will likely be awhile before I can get it fully off the ground.

If anyone is interested in joining it, or helping me to get it off the ground; particularly if anyone is an apostate of one of those faiths{Christianity,Islam,or Judaism, or another "One Way-ist" faith}, please email. If you are an apostate or know an apostate of Islam,Judaism,Christianity,etc, particularly the first two {since I do not know them well enough}-you're assistance would be greatly appreciated.
Email me:
The Very Irreverand Bill Baker at: Iconoclastithon@faithless.org

{please feel free to leave comments, pro or con.}