JUNE 15 updte on prayer/meeting/religion,etc controversy I've stirred up.

Before reading this, if you have not yet read the other posts on this subject matter, scroll down and read all the posts before this one and all the letters to editors,etc. Then read this one.
Bill



JUNE 15:

In todays paper there is a letter from a local citizen entitled "ENOUGH SATANIST RAMBLING" which misrepresents satanism and of course implies it to have the very faults that fundy/evangelical christyian faith and it's Bible have. So I sent a new letter defending it,etc. Also the semi-local candidate for the political party "The Christian Heritage Party" had a letter printed. I never responded to his letter, I did however call him up and have a reasonable conversation{which he dragged out by asking me my beliefs and debating theology/morality w/me, and it was long distance I think to a nearby town, and I was phoning from a University phone,so...}, but I phoned him merely to take him up on his challenge to me to show that in his words "I challenge Mr.Baker to show us the good works done by his faithless freethought pseudo-religions". I took him up on that and got im good, teehee! His letter was titled "Christians do good works".So, my third letter appeared in todays paper:HERE IS THAT LETTER AGAIN;



"PLEA FOR REASON AND EQUALITY":
Regarding Pastor Mike Davis' letter in Sundays Sun.Pastor Mike said that I said the prayer meeting at city hall was/is Evangelical/Conservative, and that it isn't, that is is inter-denominational. Fist, I said Evangelical/Fundamentalist, not "conservative"; this may be semantics, but their are slight though notable differences. Second, I never said it was not inter-denominational, I knew that it was, otherwise I would've been more specific and said something akin to it was "pentecostal" or "Baptist" or "Protestant" or "Catholic",etc. In Brandon, most of, if not all of these denominations ARE Evangelical and/or Fundamentalist. So, I never said anything that was not true.Next, in regards my letters to the editors on the Pope and on faith-based charities, I will not redefend my opinions, I will simply say that I adequetely explained why I hold those positions and why I believe they are ethical and correct in the actualy letters.As far as the national poll that Mike makes referance to. First, there are margins of error in all polls that vary in degree. Also, regardless of how many people "pray", they are not all praying to the same god{s}/ess{es}, and even many Christians are praying to a more liberal/equality minded god{or perhaps one that is a metaphor}. Many are simply praying to{or sending thoughts out to} the ether, the collective unconciuos,etc.The Statement "our thoughts and prayers are with you" said by the govt leaders is a fair statement, it does not show favor to a monotheistic god or any version of divinity at all; it is fair and inclusive to the faithful of all faiths and to the faithless by way of term "thoughts".Many people{faithful included} believe help is needed; however, not all of them are asking for this from a monotheistic,anthropormorphic ancient, Abrahamic sheep herder/war deity. Many are against the monopoly {some Christians/Abrahamics included} that Fundamentalist faiths have on "positive" ideals and on deity/divinity} and their opposition to democratic equality rights-such as "gay marriage" for exampl{many christians agree with me on this}.Mikes quote from the book of Timothy reveals the devotion to Pauls ideas rather than to Jesus's that most modern evangelicals/fundamentalists have. they should call themselves "Paulians".Mike says that this meeting is open to "all" whom wish to come and peacefully participate. Really? How would you react to a Liberal Christian coming and praying for equality for all{including gays in marriage,etc}? How would you feel about Non-christians coming and praying to their version of deity in this supposedly inclusive prayer meeting?Those who regularly attend are not interested in debating or entertaining a protest, pastor Mike says. Well, Pastor, I think we know the reason for this. Could it be because of your desire to pretend to be democratic while praying for your faith{and your version of it} to dominate everything including the political and social spheres. Could it be that you are afraid that to answer any questions as to the ethicalness or validity of praying in govt offices will expose a agenda of wishes to subvert democracy w/theocratic ideals of the fundamentalist christian faith}?"One City, one church, many congregations". Indeed. And all of them are Evangelical/Fundamentalist Christian denominations, and this whole thing undermines and excludes those opf other faiths,philosophies, or no faith. My assertion that your version of the christian faith has too much wealth,power, and influence here by your own proclamations-shown, by evidence, to be quite true.Now, as far as Mikes attack on the Branodn Sun for what he says is "negative articles' against the authorities/leaderships; that's quite hypocritical coming from one whom is part of a version of the Christian faith which often goes out of it's way to attack, speak negatively in the press and public,etc, against those authorities that seek democracy for all{such as for gays}. The pastor is one of their most vocal mouthpieces here in Brandon. It seems that unless it serves the evangelical/fundamentalist christian agenda it is negative, if it serves their agenda-it is positive.Here, Pastor Mike is dooing to the Brandon Sun what he did to the editors of the BU "Quill" several months ago, telling them what is appropriate and not appropriate and responsible or non, for them to print. Why? Well, because he as a conservative/fundamentlist/evangelical Christian{beeing as specific as I can} is offended at the democracy and fair-minded displayed, and the humanistic values, because they do not serve to glorify his version of god as supreme aobe all others..I am a man of reason, as such I am not against all Christians/faithists, nor equality for "all" of them and us included{by us, I mean the faithless, or people of alternative faiths}. I am simply opposed to "Absolutists"{that would include those of faith and of no-faith} having special privelages or excess wealth,power, and influence. All I want{as many other do} is equality across the board.And after all is said and done here, the fact still remains that Burgess and Dvis group are avoiding apologizing for their corrupt,untehical actions-the Mayors and other "govt" offices used by any special interest/faith group is innapropriate and should be aknowledged as such, or again-make them pay for the usage like in say Winnipeg{or "tax" them-the churches}. Allthough, since some don't have the equal wealth that these churches have and would'nt be able to afford it, the best thing to do is to not allow any in there. There is a sayig about "respect all, or respect none' in this case because of these facts, the govt should respect all by respecting none{this is too Burgess}.To Mike and his group and all the evangelical/fundamentalists; don't pray in our govt offices and we won't think in your churches. However, if you want to do so, then it's only fair that we be allowed to come into your churches and think out loud like you pray out loud in govt offices. And Burgess, you owe the city an apology, instead of dodging the fact that is is wrong.One more thing, I wish to thank publicly the Sun for their open-minded and fair coverage of this issue, I also wish to thank Tannya A. Ross for her encouragement.In Reason:Bill Baker
p.s. to Brandon Sun editor. Thank you again for your coverage of the issue. Myself, and others such as Miss Ross, and other like us thank you..Peace to you
END.


Here is the letter from the guy attacking satanism,etc:


"ENOUGH SATANIST TALK"A group of us was talking at the Westman air show the other day about Bill Baker's letters to the editor{June 7 and 11} and we were shaking our heads in disbelief.Why would the Brandon Sun let some pro-satanist ramble on about how unfair it is for Christians to use city hall to pray? Good grief, so what! So they want to pray for our leadership-good!What do Satanists want, other than to stamp out Christianity and anything that gets in the way of their lifestyle? If you think we are making this up, pick up a copy of the Satanic Bible by Anton Lavey.Christians are the ones running soup kitchens and helping the poor-you know, those horrible fundamentalist-types like the Salvation Army. Christians are helping the poor all over the world and are changing lives for the better.Some of those guys I met at the air show were from variuos churches and just shook their head sin disbelief that such a big deal could be made of praying at city hall, and that the Brandon Sun would give space to a pro-satanist.I thank God for Brandon and the life I have here and I'm so glad theer are people praying for our mayor. Lets give that some good coverage and stop siding with evil.From what I saw at the air show, you not only lost respect, you also lost readers as well.Do not give into this small minority, Mayor Dave Burgess. We support you!RYAN PRITCHARD, BRANDON.


Here is the Christian Heritage Party guys letter


"CHRISTIANS DO GOOD WORKS".Re: latters to the editor by Bill Baker on Christians beeing able to pray in City Hall{June 7 and 11}. These people were harming no one, speaking to no one, but merely earnestly asking God to help our leaders to stand for what is right and good for us all. Yes, they could meet in a church or a home. But Christianity is no ordinary religion. It happens to be the largest religion worldwide and the largest by far in Canada. Canada was founded on principles that recognize the supremacy of God. Polls show that more than 80% of Canadians believe in the God of the Bible. There are perhaps as many as 30,000 churches in Canada. Further, Christianity has done more good in the world than any other organization in history. It is fitting thn, Christianity should still be honoured by our Canadian institutions. We are not really a secular or atheistic country, but more of a Christian country than anything else. Mr. Baker spoke of the seperation of church and state. What the Americans had in mind was that there should be no state church, like the Church of England in in the UK. It has nothing to do with preventing Canadian Christians, as individuals or as a group, from bringing their beliefs into politics. Christians are not second-class citizens. In a democracy, people of faith or no faith are welcome to bring their beliefs to the public square.Most nations are in terrible shape morally. Canada is like heavan in comparison, and we must keep it that way. Canada needs all the prayer it can get if it is not going to degenerate into a immoral and lawless society.I can't see why Mr.Baker is against fundamentalist Christians and considers them dangerous. Normal Christianity is a peaceful religion with no other agenda than has to been plain for all to see for nearly 2000 years. Fundamental Christians hold traditional orthodox Christian beliefs just like Jesus and the early church did. They, like the early Church, accept the promise that as Jesus was raised from the dead, so they will be raised from the dead to everlasting life. This promise is the reason why Christians want to do good for others. They do not want to stop otjer people from the freedom to live their lives in their own way, so long it is good for all concerned.Today the equal worth of men and women, and our love for children, came to us though Christians, who are also responsible for the abolition of slavery, the creation of democracy, trade unions, most schools, universities, orphanages, hos[itals, feeding the poor and many other benefits.I challenge Mr Baker to show us the good works done by his faithless freethought pseudo-religions.COLIN ATKINS: SOURIS.


My last letter, which I just sent, which may or may not be published.


:In response to Mr.Ryan Pritchards letter in June 15th's Sun.Mr. Pritchard, I have read Anton Layveys "Satanic Bible", I've also studied variuos satanists sites and other info and talked w/Satanists. Satanists do not see Laveys book the same way revealed religionists see their books, they see it as basically just a thougt-provoking but humanly flawed book of philosophy, rather than a commandment book of absolutes, they just ahppen to agree w/most of Laveys Philosophy. Laveys Philosophy, like that of other "Symbolic" Satanists is one based in rational humanism and ethical hedonism, it is one rich w/sybology and metaphor. Lets compare shall we. The Satanic Bible talks about vengeance and indulgence, but when compared to the context of the whole thing is either mostly symbolic or based in justice and moderation, not blatantly going out of ones way to seek vengeance on people for inane things, the indulgence principle is further elaborated on as needing consent between informed,consenting adults or perhaps teens. I've also read the Christian Bible, having spent 26 years as a mainstream,non-denominationa, fundamentalist/evangelical. The Old Testament is filled w/accounts of the god of the bible commanding through his prophets mass genocide,infanticide, Rape of virgins and other war crimes, it is filled w/commands from the god of the bible to commit torture against people even for the most harmless of so-called "sins". The New Testament though filled w/less of that, as Jesus had evolved god into a slighly more fair-play deity, but it still has some commands and rules that would be considered untethical for our time, and Christians in general in the west have forsaken that, whilst still calling it all gods infallible,unchangeable word{except for Liberal ones, bless their souls and informed minds}, showing their own hypocrisy in their pickiness of what to obey and what not too.Also, the Satanic Religion since Lavey brought it from the underground,persecuted religion, to the out in the open persecuted religion, has not once had any evidence proven against it of dooing any harm in the name of the religion; though some fundamentalist Christians have had fun making up stuff, or exploiting the very few cases of ignorant teen reverse christian devil worshipping cults dooing stupid things; Satanists look upon such cruelty and stupidity w/as much disdain as any other ethical humanist, even Laveys Book does. It is a rational,ethical, fair-play minded, balanced hedonistic philosophy,it has never been used more opression of others{like say Christianity} it is opposed to that kind of tyranny and hypocrisy. Though it uses a fair bit of extreme imagery/symbolism in order to show the the lack of sense and close-mindedness of those who will judge a book by it's cover, it's mostly symbology friend. On top of that symbolic Satanists are mainly atheists,agnostics, or of some other rationalist philosophy. I myself consider myself{for the time beeing} a symbolic satanist w/a small "s", though I am more deistic or pantheistic in my thinking, hence my main religiou sphilosopgy is Universism w/a big "U". Satanists have had very little chance to defend themselves, Christians have had plenty. So, thank you to the Brandon Sun for giving me a chance to defned them and explain the philosophy a little. My last word on it is "don't judge a book by it's cover". As far as Christians beeing the ones dooing all that charitable work, yes-to prosalatyze to uninformed minds of those that have been impoversished and in need and oppressed; I know, I was once part of this. People of other religions, including Satanists, are just adept at charitable work, except most of them do not have the ulterior motive of wanting to try to convert people, especially the un/misinformed people; actually, I talked to a Satanist int he States whom actually had a charity going for awhile{a soup kitchen or something if I remember correctly}, but because of whom was running it, he could not get as much support from the community and the govt,etc, and lost his charity. Christians are seeminly more charitable because they have more wealth,power, and influence than other groups of religions in the west, and they flaunt their "charity"{prosalatyzing centers/actions}, and these fundamentlaist/evangelical Christians have been able to convinve everyone of their religions ultimate goodness{whilst downplaying the cruelty of the god of the Bible in the Old Testamant} and that every other religion lacks what they've got, they bene able to successfully monopolize the finer qualities of human nature as beeing of their religion or perhaps of only monotheistic, revealed faiths; qualities like compassion,justice, ethics,etc. They ahve also claimed monopoly on the ineffable, boxed it in, and made it in their own image{as 'he" was by his partriarchal male creators from aeons ago}.Now, this is not an attack on "all" christians, or "all" forms of Christianity, I've tried to be very specific in my letters and only point the finger at the Fundamentalists/Evangelicals, I try to seperate the Liberal Christians from them. Also, not all evangelical/fundamentalists are bad or have the ulterior motiver to prosalatyze, I know "some" whom are upstanding human beeings. My accusations are levelled at the organized maintream,evangelical, fundamentalist church collective. It is because of my desire to be precice,fair, reasonable, that I have seemingly long letters. I am a secular humanist, I am relativist{as most Universists and also most Symbolic Satanists, and atheists, agnostics,deists,etc, are.Thank you all again{especially to the Brandon Sun} for your patience,open-mindedness and for giving me this space to speak these views, and also tod efend the Satanist community and other marginalized,prejudged,minority religious groups. A last comment to Mr.Pritchard in regards to his "do not give in to this small minority" comment, yes, Mr.Pritchard that is the very mind-set of the persecution of Wiccans, gays, blacks, and other minorities whom used to be even more severely persecuted than they are now. It is also the mind-set of the Nazi's against the Jews. Think w/Reason, not w/prejudice. And, No "most' Satanists are not trying to stamp out Christianity, merely to fight the tyranny and more than equal amount of well pretty much everything that the Fundamentalist/Evangelical and other absolutist,monotheistic faiths have on the world, which gives them the chance to indoctrinate more people and even to make it appear as if their version of the faith is the only good one and that the Moderates of their faith are demonically decieved.That defense made and said...I have one quick issue, and I am digressing greatly here; that spotlight disgracing our night skies, I have talked w/many people whom share my opinion on this, it is making star gazing and enjoying night skies annoying. Could the city please do something about it?This is my last letter on these issues for now, I have filled enough papers w/these issues. What needed to be said, has been said, thank you to the Sun for this opportunity.In Reason:Bill BakerBrandon
END:


I only wish that I had;nt promised the paper that I was done. And that I had enough room to write more in that letter to challenge the disgustign,monopolizing, fallacies of the letter of Colin Atkins{the "Christian Heritage Party" guy}, the stuff he spoke claiming christianity/christians wer behind the abolition of slavery{they were also behind the slavery thing itself, democracy{um...a mixture of things, including liberal christianity,deism, ancient greek philosophy,etc}, trade unions,etc,etc,etc,,,,I mean....what a loa dof fallacy, but I cannot respond, which pisses me off, aaaarrggghh!!! I only hope that enough people know that these thigns are fallacies and that perhaps someone else will write in and expose them as such.


Jebus, this is a difficult battle!


ONWARDS FAITHLESS/REASONS SOLDIERS!!!

In Reason:
The Very Irreverand Bill Baker