The nature of the divine...

Is God all loving,moral,just,etc?....
I have a question.I used to be a Christian, first a evangelical/fundamentalist and then I spent some time as a Liberal Christian before becoming a Deist, then a Pantheist. I settled on Universist{which embraces unites faithless reason based freethought philosophies: Atheism,agnosticism,pantheism,deism,trancendentalism,etc} and have been so for over a year and a half. I have also embraced Symbolic Satanism some months ago, and consider myself both. I am "Agnostic-Deist".That said, one of the biggest questions that led me from both types of Christianity as well as to a small degree from Deism{even though I fault deists not Deism-a simple beleif that there is a creator; and still promote and Usually "lean" towards Deistic thought}.

This question is as follows:

Ok, fist off we'll disregard both types of Christianity as well as Deism, for this can be aimed at all{including some types of pantheism} though it is not neccaserily aimed at Deism but alot of Deists{whom attempt,like some of their heros such as Thomas Paine, whom happens to be one of mine as well; attempt to vindicate the Designer, or "natures god" from the cruelty and hypocrisy of biblegod-O.T. mainly but also N.T. to some degree and often,like Paine and Jefferson,etc, assume that the Creator is ultimately just,loving,reasonable,etc because there seems to be order in the Universe, even though there is also chaos and violence to bring order about, and because of the existence of "reason" which evolved into us}. I know liberal Christians also try to vindicate god from the O.T. model of him a bit and think in purely theistic or perhaps panentheistic terms.My question:If God exists and pre-existed all things, all energy forms and matter, all thought forms, and knew what would come to be from his/her/it's creation; and all these things and all the good and the evil, the harm and the help, the hate and the love, the mercy and cruelty, the chaos in the Universe{s} and all tjhe horrible acts that sentient and non-sentient species do to each other{in our case war,oppression,persecution,prejudice,rape,murder,m olestation,torture,war crimes,etc,etc,etc}and allows them and allows suffering and starvation on innocent children and the brutally selfish to gain riches and pleasure during,

All these things,like we ourselves, coming from w/in the depths of "god" whom thought/spoke everything that is into existence{which would not exist w/out having first existed w/in the depths of god}-as a manifestation of his/her/it's will and inner nature and character.In this case, as it would seem to be and cannot be escaped from, and for the orthodox Christians and muslims,etc, Satan/Shaitan/Iblis,Ahriman,Lillith,etc, and his fall and subsequent leading a third of angels to be w/him in this rebellion and all the so called harm and hate he "supposedly" gave birth to{I have a different intrpretation of the story/myth myself}, then would'nt that have been gods will-since all those thought forms and energies that led to that pre-existed w/in gods beeing and were willed into existence{as they could not exist otherwise}; would'nt this make god, by whatever conception,faith,philosophy, you see him/her/it from, either evil and bad{using these terms in a relative sense to what democratic,advanced races such as some humans think of as such, though the terms have no real cosmic meaning and are our contructs} or in the very least-neutral, neither or both{good and evil, hateful and loving,occasioanlly reasonable and occasionally unreasonable/just and unjust, harmful and helpful,etc} or perhaps none of these because she/he/it would now be emty of all feeling/emotion and intent of though as he/she/it may have then emptied it out of itself into the universe and now god is mindless and w/out personality{and in fact perhaps is now -"us"; menaing that when we do good that is god, whe we do harm-that is god}.Ultimately though would this not make "god" by whatever conception, evil, or both good and evil, or neither and empty and void?nonetheless, the concept espoused by so many people for so many faiths{and versions of those faiths} and so many philosophies that god is love, god is just, god is moral/holy/righteous;and the claim that god has no evil/hate/violence/immorality/unfairness/etc in him/her/it; that very claim is made completely void and provable as wrong.

It all is a manifestation of this gods will{however you concieve of an eternal,pre-existent creator}; meaning that it is false and wrong to say stuff like "god is love" or "god is not hate",etc, because god is neither or both; common sense{even according to faiths own conceptions that god is pre-existent,created all,is omni-etc} dictates as a fact that god is not those things that most say.So therefore all those that try to justify god and/or vindicate him/her/it or try to say that god is love and has not hate, is holy and has not evil, is light and has not darkess, is just and has not injustice,etc{whether evangelical/fundamentalist or liberal/moderate Christian,Muslim,Jew,etc; or White light Neo-pagan/Wiccan, whether Hindu, whether Deist or pantheist,etc,etc}-are liars and cold-hearted when they try to glorify a god of pure love and holiness when someone is in such great suffering; or perhaps just confused like god is confused.

I won't be like the "strong" atheist and say as Neitzsche did-"god is dead" or "god does not exist", that is a absolute claim I simply cannot prove{which is why I am agnostic}.But I will say "god is evil" or "god is not love/holy/just", or "god is all value judgements{and no one can tell another that what they do/say/think/beleive/etc is against gods will; regardles sof how cold or evil or sick it is".and actually for the orthodox/fundamentalist/evangelical Christians; the earlies O.T. writings, such as the book of Genesis have a a vision of a neutral god. In the first chapters of the book of Genesis God said "now man is like us knowing both good AND evil"{modern intpretations of this may mean something different; but the authors of these books likely had a conception of god as both the author of good things and bad things; and actually throught the O.T. god often says so himself; "I create the light and the darkness, I create help and calamity, I the Lord to all these things" from Isiah 45:7 is one of other examples}.

Can anyone logically and evidenceally refute this? When I would bring this question up when I was still Christian and struggling w/my faith , even in "question" format as opposed to ranting opinion format, NO ONE-NO RELIGIOUS LEADER OR CHRISTIAN OR PERSON-PERIOD was able to answer it and it was as if they were scared to even try. It stumped/stumps just as much if not more than the "who created god" question. Except this one has to do w/the fundamental nature of god.

You may find this message offensive or pushy,etc. But many people such as myself don't get the same respect from believers in a good god as they and their friends get from us/and everyone else. We find it offensive to be constantly bobarded in this world by this bullshit message of a loving god-since it seems it is so fundamentally untrue. Frankly, I find the fact that most will be offneded at someone like me dooing something like this highly hypocritical whilst they either offend us w/that b.s. OR condone those that do{at least much more than they would condone us to them}.
I challenge all to prove me wrong!

In Reason:
The very irreverand Bill Baker

P.S. This was typed a long time ago. I have settled on the idea that IF God exists, it is BEYOND Good and EVIL as percieved via human biases. Not both good and evil or enither, becuase this is still anthropocentric, viewing God through human dualities, IF it exists- it is BEYOND these ideas.

"Brandon Sun" reporter Curtis Brown plugs this blog on his....

So, "Brandon Sun" reporter Curtis Brown has done a post on his personal blogger regarding the religion issue I've stirred up{or rather, just brought back to the forefront, though I and my passionate letters are not thw ONLY reason it has} in the city, in which he also plugs my blog "The Iconoclast Project"{this blog}, which is one of my 3 blogs{the other two beeing "Day of Reason"- http://day-of-reason.blogspot.com , and "Raving Madman"- http://raving-madman.blogspot.com }. Below I will copy/paste what he wrote and also my response to it in his "comments" box for it. Thank you to Curtis Brown{if he reads this}. Peace all. Now to to the comments{ Oh, and by the way, Curtis's site is called "Endless SpinCycle" and it's address is http://endlessspin.blogspot.com/ };



Tempest in a Teapot 2005: Civic Jesus{By Curtis Brown}
Anyone who has ever covered politics for a newspaper in a small city like Brandon will appreciate the fact that nothing newsworthy happens in the summer. The effect of this, of course, is that stories that would get moderate play during the rest of the year are blown up to crisis proportions during July and August.I spent most of last summer reporting on a ridiculous dispute where the city unilaterally turned downtown public parking meters over to the fire department without telling nearby merchants. When I wasn't talking to merchants who were upset about this, I was skulking the dark recesses of city hall, chatting with several civic employees who - under the cloak of anonymity, of course - wanted to speak about how sapped morale was in the building.Move ahead to this summer we have another summer tempest in a teapot to keep ourselves occupied. The scandal du jour is prayer - specifically, whether or not a group of Christians should have the right to pray on city property.It all started with a letter to the editor myself or my other colleagues would typically dismiss as just another kooky raving. Bill Baker has written a lot of letters to the paper over the past year about the spread of Christian fundamentalism. Piddling stuff, really, about Christian charity groups, the predominance of Christmas and a bunch of trash-talking about Pope John Paul II. Whatever.So Bill Baker wrote a letter in early June about a prayer meeting that had taken place in the mayor's office. It sat for a few days, but there was nagging questions left in people around work's minds after it was published. Why was this group there? Who authorized them to be there? Has this always gone on?Those questions wouldn't be there had it not been for a story that had been written the previous summer - again, during the silly season - about senior civic employees driving city vans, on the city's dime, with representatives of a few local churches to a leadership conference hosted by an evangelical Christian group in Chicago. Since this loosely tied to that and a few other strange goings-on, we felt compelled to check it out. We did and ever since then, this issue has refused to die.It culminated Tuesday in myself and Sun photographer Colin Corneau attending the prayer meeting. There was nothing really threatening about it. These people were kind enough to pray for me, Colin and many other people. No one from the city took part and after the hour was up, everyone filed out of there. It would seem to be no big deal, except for the question I haven't heard a satisfactory answer to yet: why are they there? Why must they be in city hall?I believe strongly in keeping religion and government separate. I admire countries like France that believe in civic republicanism and secularism, even though France it takes it to an almost-ridiculous extent when it bans skullcaps and hijabs in schools. And like my boss, Ewan Pow, I too am strongly skeptical of any group's claims not to have a specific agenda when it insists on occupying places where political decisions are made for prayer and advancing definite stands on social policy.Bill Baker has a blog where he's been doing running commentary on all this. He appears to be happy as hell he started this whole thing. He doesn't understand the true reason why the Sun has chosen to cover this issue, but that's his business. It's a free country and he can write and think what he wants. That's what this is all about.However, this whole issue, like most debates, has turned ugly and needs to stop. Frankly, it's getting old. While I'd still like to hear people's comments on here, I hope people do what one letter-writer has urged us to do and put this distraction to bed already.UPDATE ON ALREADY STUPIDLY-LONG POST: This is weird. If you go onto our spiffy new website, you'll see Google crawl ads for a bunch of religious stuff beside all the letters to the editor and commentaries under opinion.The Lord works in mysterious ways, indeed.
posted by Curtis Brown @ 10:18 PM 1 comments
Tuesday, August 02, 2005


The Irreverands comments posted in Curtis's Comments box:

Allright-APPARENTLY the comments can't be cut and pasted. So, "if" you're interested in reading the comments I left him and his readers, head on over to his blog and find the post "Tempest in a Teapot 2005: Civic Jesus " scroll down and click on his comments box under it and read. His site is =
"Endless Spin Cycle
The electronic continuation of Spin Cycle, the Saturday column I write in the Brandon Sun. For those readers outside the bounds of southwestern Manitoba, I'm the political reporter for the Sun, the regional daily paper in this corner of the world. Click here to find out not just my take on local and provincial politics, but also national and international stories from a Westman perspective. Hope you like. CB" at http://endlessspin.blogspot.com/

In Reason:
The very irreverand Bill Baker

The Brandon newspaper religion controversy continues

So, the controversy I birthed continues, even w/out my help it continues, hehehe!!! There have been more letters to the editors and editorial pieces on the religion issue which I birthed or helped bring back to the surface. Before reading this post though please read the one before it which has my last letter to the editor in it-
Now to the newest stuff.


Tuesday, July 26th, 2005‘Far-Outs’ need to find themselves a hobby
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I find Billy Baker’s letter hilarious about disliking fundamentalists, but not Christians (July 21). Just because some liberal-minded Sun editor endorsed some of his ideas, Billy now thinks that his monologues are mainstream thinking and he is a guru to Brandon. How far out can that be?If for one moment he is under the impression that the majority of people in this community accept his reasoning as mainstream, he has a lot to learn. The label that I will apply to this group is the “Far-Outs.”Since with Billy’s and the Brandon Sun’s help in identifying and naming the so-called “fundamentalists” in our community, I would not expect anyone to whine about any personal attacks since that is what the “Far Outs” have been doing all the time about the so-called identified fundamentalists. I have a couple of questions and comments for the “Far-Outs:”• Give me specific incidents — dates, times, etc. — of harm, bombs, disruptions, etc. that the “fundamentalists” have done in this community (don’t forget that some of the charitable groups in Brandon have “fundamentalists” that run or are involved in operating these community helps).• Give me specific incidents –– dates, times, etc., –– of the positive things that the “Far-Outs” have done for the community — the key word is positive.• How many finances and volunteer hours did the “Far-Outs” donate to the homeless programs (other than StreetLove since that group may be “fundamentalist”)?• Why do the “Far-Outs” fear people who live good lives and who desire to see good things happen to their community by giving of their time and money?It makes sense to me to have people work together to make a community united rather than finding some far-out ideas to try to split the community. For the Far-Outs who have too much time on their hands: get out there and volunteer, get another job and donate some money to the underprivileged. Be a positive role model for society and get into the mainstream of Brandon society. HARVEY DUTKEWICHBrandon


[Now, I tried to respond to Harveys questions in a new letter that never got published{hey, I suppose the paper can't just always print my crap,LoL!!!} A sidenote, Harvey and I know each other and have a history. Harvey used to lead a "college and carreers" Bible study group that I attended when I was a believer. He and I did'nt get along very well ebcause he disliked that I challenged his authority,asked repeatedly tough theological and moral questions that put the faith on the stands, and because I'd sometimes wear gothic/metal make-up. Also, I have a history w/his wife Rosseane, she was the reason why my mom pulled me and my sister out of a particular church when I was like 5 or 6, because Roseane slammed me against a wall for talking to another kid during sunday school class, and I think I Probably mouthed her off for beeing misunderstanding of why I was talking in class; but christ man- that's no reason to take a five year old whom your teacvhing the babble..er..bible too and slam him against a wall!!! Anyways, after the above letter I went to a church service at the Church Harvey attends to answer his questions for him, I reasoned w/him and his wife and answered the questions the best I could, but Harv twisted it all, dodged important issues and questions himself, denied, and used the most inane of circular reasoning- as did his wife, it was very sad, I've met intelligent fundamentalists before whom use more recent apologetics and arguments and whom are actually a little open to reality and whatnot, but these two are like complete fucking morons when it comes to that-absolute anti-intellectuals-though they'd deny this, but that does'nt change the reality of the matter. Anyways, needless to say it went pretty ridiculously.; Anyways, onto the next "Brandon Sun" newspaper article]



Friday, July 29th, 2005Free to question faith
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It seems a simple question regarding whether religious leaders should be praying at city hall has turned into a moral battlefield. Bill Baker has every right in an open society to ask his questions. Should religious leaders be praying at city hall? Obviously, there are many opinions on this issue. Religious leaders have the right to pray. However, I don’t think they need to be at city hall to exercise that right. It would seem to me the appropriate place would be in their churches with their congregations. Mr. Baker in his letters is expressing his opinion about this issue. I assume he believes it merits serious debate. The responses from those opposed to his opinion are stereotypical attempts to misinform, marginalize people of different ideas, hurt, or create fear or are out right name-calling. I find this tactic very narrow-minded given the supposed nature of religious grace and community acceptance. On the other hand, maybe it is not grace that is required at all, but unquestioned obedience. I suppose it depends on your moral values. I know many people in Brandon who could be the target of Mr. Dutkewich’s attack. In fact, these people contribute in a significant way to the quality of life in Brandon. I called him on the telephone to discuss his questions but, alas, he told me he had no time for me and hung up. Perhaps Mr. Baker’s detractors could show somewhat more tolerance when they enter into public discourse. MIKE ABBEYBrandon

[Mike Abbey is a social worker if I am correct. He also is a politician whom has run for the NDP or New Democratic Party, a centralist yet left leaning political party to my understanding. Mike and I know each other-sorta, he seemed to be impressed w/me last year at a local debate between local political party candidates during the 2004 federal elections in Canada when I happenned to bring up the gay marriage issue and made a comment that everyone seemed to enjoy="democracy,not theocracy" as well as that I tore the Christian Heritage Party and Consevative Party candidates arguments to shreds in regards this issue. So, I see Mike from time to time at the Provicial building in Brandon, he and I have nice chats about politics and religion and whatever, he's a decent guy. Now for more "Brandon Sun" newspaper crap.]


Saturday, July 30th, 2005Politics, religion, passionBy: Ewan Pow
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“Last time we mixed politics with religion … people got burned at the stake”When I read the above printed on a bumper sticker last weekend I thought of the controversial prayer meetings at Brandon City Hall and had a little chuckle, but had no idea it would be a harbinger of a group discussion I would find myself in at mid-week.A group of four women and two men dropped by the Sun’s regular Wednesday morning community coffee gathering. It turned out they are members of the group that prays weekly at city hall and conversation eventually turned to the concern everyone doesn’t agree with their position prayer meetings at city hall is a good thing.This issue raised its head in a letter to the editor in the Brandon Sun on June 7 and spawned a series of letters, pro and con, since that time.Those in favour of this prayer group meeting at city hall see no harm in the practice. After all, what could the downside of having people pray for the mayor, councillors and city employees possibly be? On the surface, it appears pretty harmless.I asked why they would want to pray at city hall. Why not meet in one of the churches? One of the ladies answered saying they were part of a group called Prayer Canada and suggested I visit their website to see for myself what they are all about.On the Prayer Canada website (www.prayercanada.org) I found the following stated goal: “To establish prayer meetings in homes and churches, as well as weekly noon prayer meetings in city halls, and legislatures across the nation and beyond. If one has not been organized in your city and you could help, contact us.”The website also informed me in Manitoba only Brandon and Steinbach have prayer meetings in city hall. I’ll accept that as accurate although the same site also advises Virden, Griswold, Roblin, Warren, Killarney and Russell are all Manitoba cities with a population of 5,000 or more requiring prayer meetings.The Summer 2005 Prayer Canada’s newsletter, Prayer Post Courier, notes at the first annual Mayor’s Prayer Breakfast in Brandon: “A more than expected turnout taxed the caterer but the mayor and other authorities seemed to show very sincere concern for the Biblical principles so clearly emphasized. We believe great results are now underway. Thanks Jack and Peg and prayer team for your passionate concern to take the city for God.”Take the city for God?In this column in the June 11 Brandon Sun, I suggested some might view these folks as a lobby group. You know, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, chances are it’s a duck. Well, they were clearly a lobby group last Wednesday and after reading through their online literature, like-thinking Christians will lobby their version of morality to anyone who will listen.Many of those against prayer meetings in city hall argue that entity and the dealings therein should and must remain secular.Another asked what message was being sent to City of Brandon employees. Are employees concerned their beliefs — or lack of belief — may impede their career advancement?Clearly, the group of six I met last Wednesday is committed to their cause, and you have to admire that steadfastness in anyone. It is also clear they take literally the following passage from the Bible printed in the Summer 2005 Prayer Canada newsletter, “When the righteous are in authority the people rejoice.” (Prov. 29.2)Any discussion involving religion or politics is pretty much always passionate. Mix the two together and any debate has the potential to become volatile. In the newspaper business, we would say this issue has legs. Don’t expect it to fall off the radar screen any time soon.Ewan Pow is the Brandon Sun’s publisher and his office is at the end of the hall. He can be reached at epow@brandonsun.com

[Also, Ewan wrote another peace or two showing suspician to the Mayor and another group, and another "sun" editor did the same as well a couple times. I do not have those particular artciles as they are no longer avaliable from the "Brandon Sun" website, but they basically are somewhat the same with different words and slightly different stuff., Now more "sun" crap.]



Tuesday, August 2nd, 2005Letter to the editor: Love one another, reader urges
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In response to the growing number of public letters that have been surfacing in recent months over the seeming debate of “fundamentalist” Christians as described by Mr. Baker in his letter Christians Not Under Attack, Fundamentalism is (July 21) and the growing opposition of said religion from the extremist or “Far-Outs” as described by Mr. Dutkewich in ‘Far-Outs’ Need to Find Themselves a Hobby (July 26), I would like to make a public appeal for both sides to look at what has become the real problem — mudslinging. First of all, I would like to point out that I am neither for nor against either faction which has arisen. Although I associate myself with the Christian faith, I was not raised in a Christian upbringing, which has given me the ability and right to understand the point of views which are now being brought to light. I have had the extreme pleasure of knowing a large number of the aforementioned people whose letters have been printed. But being a person who has known these people and their beliefs, I have also come to know that the background of all of these people does not revolve around them slinging mud at each other in their own attempts to defend their beliefs.If anything, this constant bickering has gotten in the way of getting to the heart of the matter: we live in a community, not just a city, that is based upon each person having the divine right to have varying points of view and accepting others for theirs, whether it be Christian, Muslim, Universalist, or even atheist.Going back through history, it must be noted that the very core of our rights as Canadian citizens has been based upon the right to be free, both in religious and intellectual thought and expression. Does this mean we have the right to vocally defend our beliefs? Yes it does. But the very value of our thoughts in any form also tells us that in order to survive and to come together equally as a community, we must bury the hatchet and accept each other as we are.So in the context of what has happened recently, I hope that it will become the mandate of each group involved to put this incident of words behind them and do what is right, and do what the people of Brandon are known for doing. We must open our hearts, bury the hatchet, love one another and come together as a community that accepts one another for their differences, instead of slinging mud at each others’ beliefs. Let us move forward, not backward.BRIAN SUTHERLAND Brandon

[I used to go to church/bible study and school w/Brian. I have nothing bad to say about him. Nice enough and reasonable enough guy. I do think personally that he is beeing a little naieve if he thinks that the Fundies in question-or fundies at all, are going to be so tolerant and fair, they won't be! Though they will put on that public mask of loveing attitudes, but beeing a former one of them and haveing seen their darker sides I know well that it is all show and hypocrisy and a shitstained smile they give out, it's plastic. Anyways, Brian wrote another reaoned plea for tolerance and kindness,etc, I have nothing bad to say about it or him, except to say that I do think that he's beeing a little naeive and falling their lies and tricks. But I once did myself too, so I can't really blame him that much. But his letters are indeed well though out, respectul to all and well reasoned. Again, he wrote another one before this, but it is not on the "Suns" page right now. ]

[There are more from me, the editors and publishers, christians and non-christians, pro and con my views and the fundies views, But I have'nt time to type them all in here right now, and they are not avalibale unfortunately in the Suns archives at the moment, so these will have to suffice].

In Reason:
The Very irreverand
Bill Baker