Showdown at city hall council meeting; score one for religious right{or-should we?}

So, lately there has been a battle in my city for a local "Youth For Christ" to build yet another "home" for the less fortunate called "U-Turn 3" in a certain area of town, they want the land for $1 and a five year tax freeze.There was a meeting held a couple weeks ago in the City Hall, which YFC supporters packed and the local gov't had to basically admit that it was'nt fair to the opposition,etc. So last night there was another meeting, this time in the city councillors chambers, and supporters and opposers packed the room{more supporters though; again it was stacked against us, I believe it was set up that way}. I signed up to give a delagation/presentation, I did this last Friday. I got in. But I noticed that even though I was likely one of the last to sign up they put me third on the list of like twenty delegations, right after the first two which were reps of YFC{well the first was, the second were representing the U-Turn project, I say "were" because the second was 3 people}.The City gov't and the Mayor know me well{as they should, they have seen all my letters to the paper and also the Mayor has had to deal with me on a personal level and because I exposed the Fundies meeting to worship in his office, which created a huge controversy in my city, the local paper just kept it going too, hehehe!}

So, I think they knew what the expect from me and set me up on purpose! What they did was despicable, right before my delegation they got into this big discussion about not saying anything about those whom would use this "U-turn" facility because it would violate human rights code,etc. They implied those downtrodden whom would use it, not the evangelical christian organization itself , but they still used it against me. Each delegation gets 10 minutes, mine was about 8-9 minutes{I recited it at home before going} I was stopped dead in my tracks after about 1-2 minutes and forced to leave the stand, the Mayor invoked the "human rights" crap.I'm not going to type my entitre presentation because it's too long and I did'nt get to go over it all anyways, but what I will do is type the first couple paragraphs that I did get through.:

[QUOTE]:My name is Bill Baker, I reside in/around the area that YFC wishes to build their U-Turn 3 project in.First, thank you for giving me this opportunity to give this presentation, it's appreciated. I respresent sections of citizens whom are marginilized,ignored, and even prejudicely demonized for our views; the Faithless{not just Athiests and Agnostics, but other rationalists as well, such as Deists,Pantheists,Universists,Secular Humanists and more} as well as many marginilized religions such as liberal.moderate faithists, Neo-Pagans, Satanists, and others. I will not lie, I am self-appointed here.These people I represent{many of whom have come up to me and given me kudos for my recent battles with the religious right in Brandon} many of them are either too timid to speak up{here I was stopped and forced to skip to the next paragapraph}I/we take issue with projects such as "U-Turn 3"{and the others} as we believe{w/evidences} that their main purpose is not so-called "charity" but rather subversive prosalatyzing{and in some cases-blatant prosalatyzing}. I've years experience with YFC and evangelical christianity as I was one of their culture, what I say I say not from prejudice but from knowledge and experience{AGAIN I WAS STOPPED, AND WAS FORCED TO SKIP AHEAD A COUPLE PAGES INTO MY PRESENTATION; SO I ABANDONED WHAT I WROTE AND AD-LIBBED]. Yes, why should I or any other taxpayer whom may not agree with the archaic and dangerous moral prejudices of these people{ie:masturbation and homosexuality are evil,etc} and their disprovable pseudo-sciences{ie creationism, literal 6 day creation several thousand years ago, and their opposition to evolution,etc}and archaic fear-based theologies, which WILL be either subversevely prosalatyzed{or even blatantly in some cases} to the needy,downtroden, and the un/misinformed; why should I/we be forced to pay either directly or indavertently throught the gov't fundings or the fact that we have to pay full taxes while they get a tax freeze for their prosalatyzing efforts.{HERE I PARAPHRASE WHAT I SAID BECAUSE I DON'T RECALL IT WORD FOR WORD; IT WAS PRETTY MUCH HERE THAT THEY STOPPED ME AGAIN].[HERE IS WHERE I WAS FORCED TO STEP DOWN].[UNQUOTE]

So, one of my supporters left pissed off, another stuck around with me but was pissed as hell, even more than I was{LoL!}.Anyways, I stuck around and after a few presentaions I interjected between one and another with this to the Mayor and those present: "You speak of 'Human Rights'; what about the human rights of the faithless taxpayer or the homosexual taxpayer, what about the human rights of the gay whom will be told by evangelicals like YFC how sinful they are for beeing what they are, how about the human rights{by this point the Mayor was banging his gavel and someone was trying to escort me out} of the religious groups the Mayor discriminated against back in June;pagans,satanists,freethinkers, you remember that Mayor{he showed utter discrimination against them, violated their human rights w/his prejudices, you know it, it was said to me personally and then modified and said in the "Brandon Sun"}, this is a travesty, it's hypocrisy!" By now I was beeing escorted from the chambers and the Mayor was banging his gavel and telling me I was out of order{bloody hypocrite!}.

I hung out in the halls with a friend for awhile, and spoke loudly with him about the hypocrisy going on and laughing at it all,and paced around a bit. After this I walked past the open doors and shouted "SO MUCH FOR FREE SPEECH!" and walked out of the building{my friend said something into the room too,I'm not sure what,but I think it was actually more offensive than what I said}.

Aaaanyways,in todays Paper of our city called the "Brandon Sun", they have a article on it all- "U-TURN APPROVED" and explain that the council approved of it 7 against 2.as far as how many presenters were for or against, 21 for/ 13 against.I will not post the entire article, but only a few relevant parts.

[QUOTE]"after twice deferring the decision, city council finally voted late last night to approve a Youth For Christ proposal to build an apt block during a lengthy and sometimes heated special meeting that saw one man ejected frm council chambers."

"Marnie McGregor, general manager of the Brandon Chamber of Commerce, told council that it was unfair to give tax breaks on the proposed YFC apt block because three of the 12 units would be rented on the open market, 'How would it be fair to give one landlord an advantage that is not avaliable to other landlords in the city?" she said."

"Throughout the meeting, speakers were often confused about what exactly they were allowed to say. The mayor repeatedly said that discussion about the people who would use the proposed U-turn facility was forbidden, because it might constitue a violation under the human rights code and make councils decision subject to a human rights challenge; he said speakers would only be allowed to comment on the city's sale of the land for $1 and a proposed tax forgivness. That rule was was somewhat inconsistently applied,however, with the Mayor cutting off some speakers and allowing others to proceed in their comments about the benefits or drawbacks of U-Turn facilities and their residents; the city clerk even pointed out one instance of the Mayor violating his own rule".

"One man,Bill Baker, was ejected from the meeting after he refused to stop speaking despite requests from the Mayor". Baker objected to what he described as an intolerant attitude among YFC employees towards non-christians, and said public money should'nt be spent on an organization that holds such views.'So Much for Free Speech' he shouted as he left the building"[UNQUOTE]

That last paragraph was also the last paragaraph of the article{probably for dramatic effect,LoL!!!}.Anyways, I just sent a letter to the editor about the metting today, hopefully it might get publushed, we shall see I suppose.Here is that letter.

[QUOTE]Once again another so-called fair meeting at the City Hall in regards YFC'S "U-Turn" project{Sept 7th}. But again the cards were stacked against the opposers of this proposal, and especially against the marginalized faithless freethinkers,Pagans, and liberal/moderate faithists whom also happen to be demonically decieved according to evangelical Christianity. I was stopped dead in my tracks barely a couple minutes into my presentation{I'd say about a minute and a half, for a guess} . They would not allow me to go forward because first I explained in full detail the segments of society I represented and because of what I had to say{it's taboo to speak against absolutist monotheistic faiths, but not so against other marginilized religions and also faithless philosophies}. I tried to explain why I thought it was unethical to keep throwing charity into faith-based organizations hands and to expect the taxpayer{via the gov't we pay} whom may not agree w/the archaic moral prejudices of evangelical groups{ie:masturbation evil, homosexuality evil,evolution-evil, pagan religions-evil,etc}as well as their disproven pseudo-sciences{ie:creationism according to orthodox intrpretation of Bible,etc} and their fear-based theologies of a loving god that will send good people to hell simply for not following the right religion,etc. I had other things to say, but I was forced to cut through most of it and get to the end of my presentaion and why I as a tax payer should not be forced to inadvertantly help such people of unreason to subversevely shovel their unreason onto the needy and often ignorant masses of society. I do think we need organizations like these to help these people get ahead in life, these oppressed people, but at the same time-not absolutist/fundy/evangelical/faith based, disguising their prosalatyzing as "charity' and "positive lifestyles"{yeah- one based on the ignorances,prejudices, fear/guilt,etc of evangelical christianity}. I speak not from PREjudice, but expereince and knowledge of this faith-having spent most of my life as one of them. Now, the Mayor kept appealing to "human rights" stuff. What got me ejected from the room all together was when I spoke up after listening to a few presentations and said to him and everyone present- "You speak of 'Human Rights'; what about the human rights of the faithless taxpayer or the homosexual taxpayer, what about the human rights of the gay whom will be told by evangelicals like YFC how sinful they are for beeing what they are, how about the human rights{by this point the Mayor was banging his gavel and someone was trying to escort me out} of the religious groups the Mayor discriminated against back in June;Pagans,Satanists, faithless freethinkers, you remember that Mayor{he showed utter discrimination against them, violated their human rights w/his prejudices, you know it, it was said to me personally and then modified and said in the "Brandon Sun"}, this is a travesty, it's hypocrisy!" By now I was out of the room. Sad, because we all know the favoritism that the Mayor and much of the local gov't has towards evangelicals/fundamentalists, we've seen fundies meet in the Mayors office for worship, we've seen city reps sent to evangelical so-called "business" meetings in the U.S. on the citys/taxpayers dime{when many of us don't share those theological archaic moral and spiritual prejudices of theirs}, we've seen the mayor solicit donations for evangelical groups,etc.
What happenned last night was just another shred of evidence that the evangelical/fundamentalist christian community has more than it's fair share of wealth,power,influence, and favoritism showered towards it, and that the gov't is sleeping w/the church. We should become part of the theocratic states of America! The mayor, whom does'nt know jack about human rights and equality, kept invoking it when it suited him. For shame! So, he can be intolerant towards religions he knows nothing about, but someone like myself cannot speak about a so-called larger religion that I have years experience with? What absurdity! When will this stop?
How about the gov't take responsibility for the poor and downtrodden that it has forced into that position in the first place-instead of shovelling them into the hands of evangelicals all the time?
Now, not all those at YFC are intolerant, not "all" evangelicals are either; but these organizations as a whole and this segment of the christian faith as a whole disguises their intolerance in love rhetoric and seeks the opportunity to turn the world into a bunch of ignorant creationist,monogamous heterosexual,anti-homosexuality,anti-pagan,anti-freethought/reason/facts, Orthodox Christian fools whom fear beeing sent to hell by a loving god so much that they can't see the forest for the trees.

Enough is enough!
I call all the faithless, all the pagans, all the moderate christians, the gay community,etc, to join me in this fight against this subtle tyranny{as opposed to simply secretly giving me kudos when they see around or in the paper}-I cannot fight for you on my own, join me. Stand up for yourselves! My email is westman@universist.com, I encourage you to contact me.

I have no doubt YFC are sincere about their wanting to prosalatyze those archaic,prejudiced,disprovable,ancient moral vlaues and theologies and pseudo-science to the downtrodden, I also believe many of them truly do care as individuals too, but that is no excuse to take advantage of the needy like that{and of the gov't and taxpayer}.

Frankly, if they want this they should get the MANY,many churches and well off evangelical/fundies around this city to pay for their own prosalatyzation of the bad news of damnation and all beeing worthless crap unless they serve a disproven deity.

Our gov't should be ashamed for fornicating with the evangelical wrong...er..right!

Thank you and "so much for free speech Mayor, so much for 'human rights'.

Bill Baker

Brandon
[UNQUOTE]

One of the worst things was that ALL presenters addreses were on the meeting itenerary sheet for all the public to see, which I thought was disgusting. I went to the City Hall today and told them that "If I receive any harrasment or criminal activity against me because of the views I've expressed and the fact that people got to see my address, I will hold those whom added our addresses to the sheet and did'nt inform the presenters before hands that their addresses would be on the public sheet, I will hold them and the Mayor responsible, and I hope anyone else whom may be harrased or have crime commited against them because of this will too".

Hahahaaa!!!Wow, what a showdown!
And friends, there is more to come. There is a revolution brewing against the elite absolutist faithless subverting our democracies. I for one will keep up the good fight of reason against unreason, friends join me and all the others like me, together we can make this a more fair,equal,just,raitonal, truly tolerant, ethical, democratic society and future world.
As Thomas Paine{U.S. founding Father,Patriot, and famous Deist} once Said- "There is no greater weapon against errors of any kind than REASON, I have never used and other and I trust I never shall"; let that be one of our motto's.

In the meantime, please visit my other sites/blogs "Day of Reason"- http://day-of-reason.blogspot.com/ {which is a blog to promote a worldwide "Day of Reason" which I decided to promote after the U.S. freethinkers decided to do a "National day of reason" as a response to a U.S. and International move for a "National day of prayer" and "Global Day of Praper"} and Raving Madman- http://raving-madman.blogspot.com/

Also in the meantime, please check out the Universist movement{a religious/philosophical movement of faithless freethinkers ranging from Atheists,Agnostics,Deists,Pantheists,Trancendentalists,etc} based out of Birmingham,Alabama,U.S., which has become a global phenomena in under two years; http://www.universist.org/ http://www.faithless.org/

In Reason:
The very irreverand Bill Baker

"Brandon Sun" reporter Curtis Brown plugs this blog on his....

So, "Brandon Sun" reporter Curtis Brown has done a post on his personal blogger regarding the religion issue I've stirred up{or rather, just brought back to the forefront, though I and my passionate letters are not thw ONLY reason it has} in the city, in which he also plugs my blog "The Iconoclast Project"{this blog}, which is one of my 3 blogs{the other two beeing "Day of Reason"- http://day-of-reason.blogspot.com , and "Raving Madman"- http://raving-madman.blogspot.com }. Below I will copy/paste what he wrote and also my response to it in his "comments" box for it. Thank you to Curtis Brown{if he reads this}. Peace all. Now to to the comments{ Oh, and by the way, Curtis's site is called "Endless SpinCycle" and it's address is http://endlessspin.blogspot.com/ };



Tempest in a Teapot 2005: Civic Jesus{By Curtis Brown}
Anyone who has ever covered politics for a newspaper in a small city like Brandon will appreciate the fact that nothing newsworthy happens in the summer. The effect of this, of course, is that stories that would get moderate play during the rest of the year are blown up to crisis proportions during July and August.I spent most of last summer reporting on a ridiculous dispute where the city unilaterally turned downtown public parking meters over to the fire department without telling nearby merchants. When I wasn't talking to merchants who were upset about this, I was skulking the dark recesses of city hall, chatting with several civic employees who - under the cloak of anonymity, of course - wanted to speak about how sapped morale was in the building.Move ahead to this summer we have another summer tempest in a teapot to keep ourselves occupied. The scandal du jour is prayer - specifically, whether or not a group of Christians should have the right to pray on city property.It all started with a letter to the editor myself or my other colleagues would typically dismiss as just another kooky raving. Bill Baker has written a lot of letters to the paper over the past year about the spread of Christian fundamentalism. Piddling stuff, really, about Christian charity groups, the predominance of Christmas and a bunch of trash-talking about Pope John Paul II. Whatever.So Bill Baker wrote a letter in early June about a prayer meeting that had taken place in the mayor's office. It sat for a few days, but there was nagging questions left in people around work's minds after it was published. Why was this group there? Who authorized them to be there? Has this always gone on?Those questions wouldn't be there had it not been for a story that had been written the previous summer - again, during the silly season - about senior civic employees driving city vans, on the city's dime, with representatives of a few local churches to a leadership conference hosted by an evangelical Christian group in Chicago. Since this loosely tied to that and a few other strange goings-on, we felt compelled to check it out. We did and ever since then, this issue has refused to die.It culminated Tuesday in myself and Sun photographer Colin Corneau attending the prayer meeting. There was nothing really threatening about it. These people were kind enough to pray for me, Colin and many other people. No one from the city took part and after the hour was up, everyone filed out of there. It would seem to be no big deal, except for the question I haven't heard a satisfactory answer to yet: why are they there? Why must they be in city hall?I believe strongly in keeping religion and government separate. I admire countries like France that believe in civic republicanism and secularism, even though France it takes it to an almost-ridiculous extent when it bans skullcaps and hijabs in schools. And like my boss, Ewan Pow, I too am strongly skeptical of any group's claims not to have a specific agenda when it insists on occupying places where political decisions are made for prayer and advancing definite stands on social policy.Bill Baker has a blog where he's been doing running commentary on all this. He appears to be happy as hell he started this whole thing. He doesn't understand the true reason why the Sun has chosen to cover this issue, but that's his business. It's a free country and he can write and think what he wants. That's what this is all about.However, this whole issue, like most debates, has turned ugly and needs to stop. Frankly, it's getting old. While I'd still like to hear people's comments on here, I hope people do what one letter-writer has urged us to do and put this distraction to bed already.UPDATE ON ALREADY STUPIDLY-LONG POST: This is weird. If you go onto our spiffy new website, you'll see Google crawl ads for a bunch of religious stuff beside all the letters to the editor and commentaries under opinion.The Lord works in mysterious ways, indeed.
posted by Curtis Brown @ 10:18 PM 1 comments
Tuesday, August 02, 2005


The Irreverands comments posted in Curtis's Comments box:

Allright-APPARENTLY the comments can't be cut and pasted. So, "if" you're interested in reading the comments I left him and his readers, head on over to his blog and find the post "Tempest in a Teapot 2005: Civic Jesus " scroll down and click on his comments box under it and read. His site is =
"Endless Spin Cycle
The electronic continuation of Spin Cycle, the Saturday column I write in the Brandon Sun. For those readers outside the bounds of southwestern Manitoba, I'm the political reporter for the Sun, the regional daily paper in this corner of the world. Click here to find out not just my take on local and provincial politics, but also national and international stories from a Westman perspective. Hope you like. CB" at http://endlessspin.blogspot.com/

In Reason:
The very irreverand Bill Baker

The Brandon newspaper religion controversy continues

So, the controversy I birthed continues, even w/out my help it continues, hehehe!!! There have been more letters to the editors and editorial pieces on the religion issue which I birthed or helped bring back to the surface. Before reading this post though please read the one before it which has my last letter to the editor in it-
Now to the newest stuff.


Tuesday, July 26th, 2005‘Far-Outs’ need to find themselves a hobby
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I find Billy Baker’s letter hilarious about disliking fundamentalists, but not Christians (July 21). Just because some liberal-minded Sun editor endorsed some of his ideas, Billy now thinks that his monologues are mainstream thinking and he is a guru to Brandon. How far out can that be?If for one moment he is under the impression that the majority of people in this community accept his reasoning as mainstream, he has a lot to learn. The label that I will apply to this group is the “Far-Outs.”Since with Billy’s and the Brandon Sun’s help in identifying and naming the so-called “fundamentalists” in our community, I would not expect anyone to whine about any personal attacks since that is what the “Far Outs” have been doing all the time about the so-called identified fundamentalists. I have a couple of questions and comments for the “Far-Outs:”• Give me specific incidents — dates, times, etc. — of harm, bombs, disruptions, etc. that the “fundamentalists” have done in this community (don’t forget that some of the charitable groups in Brandon have “fundamentalists” that run or are involved in operating these community helps).• Give me specific incidents –– dates, times, etc., –– of the positive things that the “Far-Outs” have done for the community — the key word is positive.• How many finances and volunteer hours did the “Far-Outs” donate to the homeless programs (other than StreetLove since that group may be “fundamentalist”)?• Why do the “Far-Outs” fear people who live good lives and who desire to see good things happen to their community by giving of their time and money?It makes sense to me to have people work together to make a community united rather than finding some far-out ideas to try to split the community. For the Far-Outs who have too much time on their hands: get out there and volunteer, get another job and donate some money to the underprivileged. Be a positive role model for society and get into the mainstream of Brandon society. HARVEY DUTKEWICHBrandon


[Now, I tried to respond to Harveys questions in a new letter that never got published{hey, I suppose the paper can't just always print my crap,LoL!!!} A sidenote, Harvey and I know each other and have a history. Harvey used to lead a "college and carreers" Bible study group that I attended when I was a believer. He and I did'nt get along very well ebcause he disliked that I challenged his authority,asked repeatedly tough theological and moral questions that put the faith on the stands, and because I'd sometimes wear gothic/metal make-up. Also, I have a history w/his wife Rosseane, she was the reason why my mom pulled me and my sister out of a particular church when I was like 5 or 6, because Roseane slammed me against a wall for talking to another kid during sunday school class, and I think I Probably mouthed her off for beeing misunderstanding of why I was talking in class; but christ man- that's no reason to take a five year old whom your teacvhing the babble..er..bible too and slam him against a wall!!! Anyways, after the above letter I went to a church service at the Church Harvey attends to answer his questions for him, I reasoned w/him and his wife and answered the questions the best I could, but Harv twisted it all, dodged important issues and questions himself, denied, and used the most inane of circular reasoning- as did his wife, it was very sad, I've met intelligent fundamentalists before whom use more recent apologetics and arguments and whom are actually a little open to reality and whatnot, but these two are like complete fucking morons when it comes to that-absolute anti-intellectuals-though they'd deny this, but that does'nt change the reality of the matter. Anyways, needless to say it went pretty ridiculously.; Anyways, onto the next "Brandon Sun" newspaper article]



Friday, July 29th, 2005Free to question faith
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It seems a simple question regarding whether religious leaders should be praying at city hall has turned into a moral battlefield. Bill Baker has every right in an open society to ask his questions. Should religious leaders be praying at city hall? Obviously, there are many opinions on this issue. Religious leaders have the right to pray. However, I don’t think they need to be at city hall to exercise that right. It would seem to me the appropriate place would be in their churches with their congregations. Mr. Baker in his letters is expressing his opinion about this issue. I assume he believes it merits serious debate. The responses from those opposed to his opinion are stereotypical attempts to misinform, marginalize people of different ideas, hurt, or create fear or are out right name-calling. I find this tactic very narrow-minded given the supposed nature of religious grace and community acceptance. On the other hand, maybe it is not grace that is required at all, but unquestioned obedience. I suppose it depends on your moral values. I know many people in Brandon who could be the target of Mr. Dutkewich’s attack. In fact, these people contribute in a significant way to the quality of life in Brandon. I called him on the telephone to discuss his questions but, alas, he told me he had no time for me and hung up. Perhaps Mr. Baker’s detractors could show somewhat more tolerance when they enter into public discourse. MIKE ABBEYBrandon

[Mike Abbey is a social worker if I am correct. He also is a politician whom has run for the NDP or New Democratic Party, a centralist yet left leaning political party to my understanding. Mike and I know each other-sorta, he seemed to be impressed w/me last year at a local debate between local political party candidates during the 2004 federal elections in Canada when I happenned to bring up the gay marriage issue and made a comment that everyone seemed to enjoy="democracy,not theocracy" as well as that I tore the Christian Heritage Party and Consevative Party candidates arguments to shreds in regards this issue. So, I see Mike from time to time at the Provicial building in Brandon, he and I have nice chats about politics and religion and whatever, he's a decent guy. Now for more "Brandon Sun" newspaper crap.]


Saturday, July 30th, 2005Politics, religion, passionBy: Ewan Pow
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“Last time we mixed politics with religion … people got burned at the stake”When I read the above printed on a bumper sticker last weekend I thought of the controversial prayer meetings at Brandon City Hall and had a little chuckle, but had no idea it would be a harbinger of a group discussion I would find myself in at mid-week.A group of four women and two men dropped by the Sun’s regular Wednesday morning community coffee gathering. It turned out they are members of the group that prays weekly at city hall and conversation eventually turned to the concern everyone doesn’t agree with their position prayer meetings at city hall is a good thing.This issue raised its head in a letter to the editor in the Brandon Sun on June 7 and spawned a series of letters, pro and con, since that time.Those in favour of this prayer group meeting at city hall see no harm in the practice. After all, what could the downside of having people pray for the mayor, councillors and city employees possibly be? On the surface, it appears pretty harmless.I asked why they would want to pray at city hall. Why not meet in one of the churches? One of the ladies answered saying they were part of a group called Prayer Canada and suggested I visit their website to see for myself what they are all about.On the Prayer Canada website (www.prayercanada.org) I found the following stated goal: “To establish prayer meetings in homes and churches, as well as weekly noon prayer meetings in city halls, and legislatures across the nation and beyond. If one has not been organized in your city and you could help, contact us.”The website also informed me in Manitoba only Brandon and Steinbach have prayer meetings in city hall. I’ll accept that as accurate although the same site also advises Virden, Griswold, Roblin, Warren, Killarney and Russell are all Manitoba cities with a population of 5,000 or more requiring prayer meetings.The Summer 2005 Prayer Canada’s newsletter, Prayer Post Courier, notes at the first annual Mayor’s Prayer Breakfast in Brandon: “A more than expected turnout taxed the caterer but the mayor and other authorities seemed to show very sincere concern for the Biblical principles so clearly emphasized. We believe great results are now underway. Thanks Jack and Peg and prayer team for your passionate concern to take the city for God.”Take the city for God?In this column in the June 11 Brandon Sun, I suggested some might view these folks as a lobby group. You know, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, chances are it’s a duck. Well, they were clearly a lobby group last Wednesday and after reading through their online literature, like-thinking Christians will lobby their version of morality to anyone who will listen.Many of those against prayer meetings in city hall argue that entity and the dealings therein should and must remain secular.Another asked what message was being sent to City of Brandon employees. Are employees concerned their beliefs — or lack of belief — may impede their career advancement?Clearly, the group of six I met last Wednesday is committed to their cause, and you have to admire that steadfastness in anyone. It is also clear they take literally the following passage from the Bible printed in the Summer 2005 Prayer Canada newsletter, “When the righteous are in authority the people rejoice.” (Prov. 29.2)Any discussion involving religion or politics is pretty much always passionate. Mix the two together and any debate has the potential to become volatile. In the newspaper business, we would say this issue has legs. Don’t expect it to fall off the radar screen any time soon.Ewan Pow is the Brandon Sun’s publisher and his office is at the end of the hall. He can be reached at epow@brandonsun.com

[Also, Ewan wrote another peace or two showing suspician to the Mayor and another group, and another "sun" editor did the same as well a couple times. I do not have those particular artciles as they are no longer avaliable from the "Brandon Sun" website, but they basically are somewhat the same with different words and slightly different stuff., Now more "sun" crap.]



Tuesday, August 2nd, 2005Letter to the editor: Love one another, reader urges
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In response to the growing number of public letters that have been surfacing in recent months over the seeming debate of “fundamentalist” Christians as described by Mr. Baker in his letter Christians Not Under Attack, Fundamentalism is (July 21) and the growing opposition of said religion from the extremist or “Far-Outs” as described by Mr. Dutkewich in ‘Far-Outs’ Need to Find Themselves a Hobby (July 26), I would like to make a public appeal for both sides to look at what has become the real problem — mudslinging. First of all, I would like to point out that I am neither for nor against either faction which has arisen. Although I associate myself with the Christian faith, I was not raised in a Christian upbringing, which has given me the ability and right to understand the point of views which are now being brought to light. I have had the extreme pleasure of knowing a large number of the aforementioned people whose letters have been printed. But being a person who has known these people and their beliefs, I have also come to know that the background of all of these people does not revolve around them slinging mud at each other in their own attempts to defend their beliefs.If anything, this constant bickering has gotten in the way of getting to the heart of the matter: we live in a community, not just a city, that is based upon each person having the divine right to have varying points of view and accepting others for theirs, whether it be Christian, Muslim, Universalist, or even atheist.Going back through history, it must be noted that the very core of our rights as Canadian citizens has been based upon the right to be free, both in religious and intellectual thought and expression. Does this mean we have the right to vocally defend our beliefs? Yes it does. But the very value of our thoughts in any form also tells us that in order to survive and to come together equally as a community, we must bury the hatchet and accept each other as we are.So in the context of what has happened recently, I hope that it will become the mandate of each group involved to put this incident of words behind them and do what is right, and do what the people of Brandon are known for doing. We must open our hearts, bury the hatchet, love one another and come together as a community that accepts one another for their differences, instead of slinging mud at each others’ beliefs. Let us move forward, not backward.BRIAN SUTHERLAND Brandon

[I used to go to church/bible study and school w/Brian. I have nothing bad to say about him. Nice enough and reasonable enough guy. I do think personally that he is beeing a little naieve if he thinks that the Fundies in question-or fundies at all, are going to be so tolerant and fair, they won't be! Though they will put on that public mask of loveing attitudes, but beeing a former one of them and haveing seen their darker sides I know well that it is all show and hypocrisy and a shitstained smile they give out, it's plastic. Anyways, Brian wrote another reaoned plea for tolerance and kindness,etc, I have nothing bad to say about it or him, except to say that I do think that he's beeing a little naeive and falling their lies and tricks. But I once did myself too, so I can't really blame him that much. But his letters are indeed well though out, respectul to all and well reasoned. Again, he wrote another one before this, but it is not on the "Suns" page right now. ]

[There are more from me, the editors and publishers, christians and non-christians, pro and con my views and the fundies views, But I have'nt time to type them all in here right now, and they are not avalibale unfortunately in the Suns archives at the moment, so these will have to suffice].

In Reason:
The Very irreverand
Bill Baker

New letter{s} to editor....{July 21/05} and a personal note...{Christian fundamentalists persecution complex}

So,the other day someone had a letter they wrote to the editor of the "Brandon Sun" newspaper complaining about how Christians were under attack lately in Brandons paper and the city, and that we should return to teaching children the Lords prayer,etc,etc....as well they were offended by a teacher in a nearby city{Winkler,Manitoba} whom wants their public schools to get w/the times and quit propogandizing the Christian faith before all others in the schools{this teacher by the way happens to themselves be a Christian}.

So, I emailed a response, and it was published in todays paper{July 21/05; "Brandon Sun"}.
Here it is:


"CHRISTIANS NOT UNDER ATTACK, FUNDAMENTALISM IS."
In response to the letter from the Fouillards{July 20}, Christians are'nt under attack!
Myself and others dooing this alleged "attacking" have little to no issues with reasonable moderate/liberal Christians and Christianity. It is fundamentalism we are attacking and the fact that it seeks unfair influence over the political and social moral spheres and takes advantage of the needy,ignorant, and uninformed.
That and the favoritism our mayor has been showing to evangelical fundamentalists and to monotheists, as well as his prejudice towards those religions/philosophies he thinks are "against the grain" or "anti-religious"{when in reality it is the fundamentalist Christians who are anti-religious against any belief or unbelief that is not theirs.}.
That prayer group meeting in our gov't offices, for example, used the offices to pray against gays and gay marriage. Many gays are Christians{liberals and moderates mainly}. They are beeing told by fundamentalists seeking to subvert secular law that they don't deserve equality under the Charter because they think thier God has a special pet peeve against homosexuality.
Now, had this group been praying for racial segregation in these offices, would we be so tolerant and sympathetic to them?No!
Like the fundamentalist Islamic faith- which too easily breeeds extremism,oppression,intolerance,prejudice,irrational and unneeded psychollogical fear,guilt neuroses and dangerous mindsets against the rest of the world and it's viewpoints-this is dangerous!
We are defending the world against the attacks and false prejudiced information of these evangelical/fundamentalist Christians and their version of their faith.
It is not Christianity/Christians in general we are attacking. It is fundamentalism and it's unsafe excess influence. Of course they assume that only orthodox/fundamentalist/evangelical Christianity is the true version of this faith and that this faith is the only truly moral/good religion.
Go ahead and say the lords Prayer- no one is saying you can't. Just don't try to enforce it in our schools
and political landscapes. the way you phrased itseems to be a wish to see the Lords prayer become common in such spheres again.
Don't assume that saying the lords prayer is better than people who say other prayers to other gods/goddesses or who don't pray at all.
Plenty of atheists,agnostics,deists and other faithless freethinkers don't pray and don't teach their children too, yet they live examplary lives and raise children who also do.
By the way, the Winkler situation is a concern of a fellow Christian who just believes that all religions and non-religions should be treated equally and that public schools should not be playing favourites with one particular faith or one intrpretation of it. That teacher does their religion a service with this battle, kudos to him.
I repeat, it is not Christians in general beeing attacked, it is fundamentalism as it lives and exists to attack everyone and everything else.
This is merely self-defense.
Peace to you

Bill Baker
Brandon.

END OF LETTER.


And here is another letter from another reader that is also a response to that couples letter.

MAYOR MUST REPRESENT ALL PEOPLE, WITHOUR PREJUDICE.
I would like to take a minute to respond to the Christians under attack letter to the editor{July 20} and others who have no problem with city hall as a prayer centre.
First of all, anyone holding any elected position has neither the right,legally or ethically, to use public space to endorse anyones beliefs.
Secondly, to use that office to officially ask for monies is also unethical. It may be fine for those who believe in God to see his actions as well-intended, but suppose he were Muslim,Hindi,jewish,or any other belief. Would you then hold the Mayor im such high regard?
The problem is that an elected official is given his appointment to represent all the people without prejudice.
What if I wanted to hold a social in his worships office to pay for my grandfathers hip surgery? Is this OK? What if someone wanted to sacrifice a goat as people in the Santarea religion to help your cause? Can they use the Mayors office too?
I suggest to you that there are far superior ways to help society than to pray for someone or something. The first of those things is to protect our democratic rights from those who seek to infringe on them.

Derrick Campbell
Brandon


END OF LETTER.


Here's the deal folks. when I first invaded the prayer meeting in the Mayors office last month and there was about a week of public outcry from the Brandon Sun paper and some citizens in the Brandon Sun, it later died down. Though I continued my personal crusade behi ind the scenes; attending bethel church to silently but in full view protest all this crap they and the Mayor were dooing, I also had been protestign alone outside city hall with a sign-though eventually for the last few weeks I had been going to their prayer meetings in the City hall and protesting there{including verbally and loudly}, last time I went about a week and a half ago the prayer group told me to leave, I said that they'd have to get someone else[the authorities or something] to make me, cause I was staying,. A coupe of themleft the room and made a phone call or two then returned and they held their meeting, as I verbally protested one of them allmost throttled me{so much for the love of god/jesus eh? LoL!!!}. I left early as I had an appointment elsewhere. I few days later the cops visited me at my home and told me that if I went back there I'd be arrested! LoL!!! [so I have'nt returned].
I though the issue was fading away in the city, but apparently I really woke a sleeping giant up because a few days ago the Brandon Sun publisher did a article on how the Mayor recently solicited donations from local businessess for Calvary Temple church's youth "glimpse" program[to sent youth on a mexican missionary trip} and rebuked him for that and many of the other favours he's been dooing for localevangelical groups. Then a day or two later more letters-including this one whining of christiasn beeing persecutedand then mine and this other guys.

I've started a culture war over religion here in Brandon, I could'ne be more beeming w/pride and sense of accomplishment!

Hail reason.

In Reason:
The very irreverand Bill Baker